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What Was Your Turning Point? - Second Half
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1 year 11 months ago #110
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What Was Your Turning Point? - Second Half was created by multipleauthors
thewidowsson
:
>
Originally Posted by Matt Foley
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
...October 1988 , on a cool fall Arkansas evening , I stood in the front yard of my house, hand cuffed !, as a sheriffs deputy and my soon to be ex had a discussion on what I suppose was every reason I should be treated as a common criminal . I looked up at the stars of a clear sky and promised my self that this was to be the one and only time for me to endure captivity. I've been MYGTOW ever since.
Witam Was :
>
Originally Posted by Chairborne
So you hadn't done anything with her, but she made up the story entirely? Sheesh...
Right, We worked together and she keep flirting with me at the office. Then I find one day that she made up this story about me and her. Then her coworker told me she got fired from that job and she got back with her ex and was moving out of state.
mr.jr :
From Chairborn's post above: "....this chick is trying out for the part. I had the distinct pleasure of rejecting her, telling her we wanted somebody "less fat"."
Oh yeah - Sweeeeet!!!!
Chairborne :
>
Originally Posted by Witam Was
> Right, We worked together and she keep flirting with me at the office. Then I find one day that she made up this story about me and her.
> Then her coworker told me she got fired from that job and she got back with her ex and was moving out of state.
I don't know if it's slander, libel, or "bearing false witness" but shit like that should be illegal. It might be, but no cop has ever enforced it to my knowledge...
Fully Completely :
I 'fondly' remember one incident in my mid twenties when I was looking for direction and being the blue pill romantic I was wanting to 'settle down' with a good local woman.
There was this attractive girl that went to the same school I did before that a friend of mine re introduced me to at a volleyball / corn roast GTG he organized. Actually it was the reason he invited me as she was available. We didn't really hit it off at first as far as I could tell as we are a little different ( me the introvert and her sort of a bar fly ) but hey she was cute, had a nice little body and did seem sweet in a dumb simple way. Of course her 'best friend' was there and I gather I didn't win over any points with her but I did make a GREAT effort earlier at the volleyball game by removing my shirt to show off my upper body ( was in my prime bodybuilding mode then ). I also tried to be as extroverted as possible that even though it was totally exhausting for me.
I kept pursuing her a few more weeks giving it my best shot and figured if it didn't work out I would just concentrate on the upcoming equipment move I had planned for my machine shop business to another rental loft. Sort of like I wanted to secure a relationship right then and there as I knew I wouldn't have as much time and energy for a while once the move began. That and I hadn't been so attracted to a girl for quite
a while so I didn't want to miss the boat so to speak.
We went on a couple of platonic dates until her 'best friend' introduced her to her BF's brother ( as in brother in law ) to get me out of the picture. I pressed on a little more until once later on the phone she admitted speaking to her former room mate / high school girlfriend about me and how she was basically counseled that she shouldn't
go on any dates with me or anything. ( in other words she was told that I was a creep )
This friend of hers was on the carousel big time in the early eighties with the rich kids at the nearby ski resort.
When I finally got the message I sabotaged what I could by getting a buzz cut that didn't suit me at all, just to get closure. That one time she saw me like that was the last, as she asked me whether I had to go training or something to get me to leave.
Leave I did !
That was the one incident that hurt me the most : Girl I was interested in was told
to stay away from me by her peers. So much for finding a nice girl, getting married and
helping me build a business
I guess that the bad boy carousel was more appealing.
Last I heard she ended up marrying some charismatic party guy that would bounce between jobs.
I was the epitome of naivety.
sergiovalmendea :
My turning point was realizing that when I busted my ass to fix her fuckups, I got little to no appreciation. All I wanted was for her to act right. So I stopped doing anything for her. After a long time she asked why and assumed it was another woman. I poked holes in her logic by stating " Its Friday night, I got a pocket full of cash and a car outside. If there was another woman or women wouldn't I be gone right now? Why would I still be here on the couch?" I just stopped caring because all I asked for was for her to act right, stop seeking fun and track down a better paying job, get her GED and her life on track and it was met with defiance, drunken rantings and blaming me for everything including bad weather " its your fault its raining". Oh, and I refused to celebrate Valentines Day and went out with friends and came home at 4am. She came home at all hours of the night and I didn't pay any mind cause I was hoping she got arrested and went to jail. Yet this was the day I fired her ass and disavowed her as my girlfriend after she hurled glass ashtrays and crystal blocks at me. My arm and leg was bruised and swollen. She ripped a bracelet off my wrist and I started dialing the police which halted her assault. I should have called the cops but there weren't any marks until a day later. In California they arrest both parties and I didn't feel like dealing with DV cops at 5am. I just fired her and said find a place and get the fuck out. I'm not your boyfriend anymore, fix your own shit and have half the bills on the first or you're booted ( I'm lazy about moving but the camel's back is broken now so I will be breaking my lease if I get approved for a loan for a house). She came up with her half of bill money. I sleep on the couch cause its over. Hating that I will have to shell out money if I brake the lease. There is peace for now but a drunk will be a drunk.
Thank God one of my ex's ( we broke up amicably and on good terms) emailed me with info on a guy who can help me get a house with great loan rates. My lease ends in October but I'm not staying that long. Fingers are crossed and hoping this guy can help me get the loan. Nothing happens overnight but you never know until you try. And I'm fucking trying my ass off.
MGTOW and other sites and using logic helped me realize that my feelings are valid, I deserve respect because I earned it, I'm a good guy, don't put up with bullshit and call it out when I see it and stupid shit has no business in the same space as me. Being over 40 helps to spot red flags too.
RantandReason :
here was no single moment, but I do remember the "thought" that started it. I had been a total mangina for the vast majority of my life. I grew up on tales of knights rescuing women and loving them from afar, and when I found "the one" I would dedicate myself to her to the exclusion of all other women. I would spend years trying to be as amazing to these women as possible thinking this was what you were supposed to do. I finally came to a realization, that in all of these "relationships" there was 1 common factor, me. So I stepped back from women for awhile. One day while doing some marketing research I stumbled onto a book, and it was one of those elusive obvious moments. The book was called "the psychology of men and women". I never read it, but the title alone was what finally woke me up, that men and women ARE different. I know to alot of people that may seem completely obvious, but I had been operating my entire life under the delusion that men and women were exactly equal except for the dangly bits.
This then lead me into researching all kinds of different subjects like evolution, neurolinguistic programming, biology, evolutionary psychology, and just about every self help book you can think of. That's around when I found the PUA community, and they had been doing what I had been doing, only for longer. I dove in head first and became really serious about it. I would go out and practice different techniques, try my own ideas, and it was a pretty crazy time.
Then I had the thought. And my thought was this. How much effort have I put in, in order to get to this place I'm at now. Where I am attractive to the opposite sex, where I have spent countless hours examining my own behaviours, and facing down my beliefs head on and questioning them with as much intellectual courage as I mustered up when I finally came to the conclusion I was an atheist. It is NOT easy, and for anyone who has taken a belief, and questioned it, and realized they were wrong all along, you will know that it's not an easy thing to do. And I go out and meet women who party all the time and have fun all the time and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE did I see, or hear mention, that she was doing anything like what I and countless other men were doing. And still to this day I do not know of a single women who has put in the kinds of effort PUAs do in order to make themselves a better person and more attractive to the opposite sex on a meaningful level.
I remember one example given by a PUA speaker and he said imagine you're a doctor. You've spent the last 3 years saving lives in Africa. You're a world class physician. And you're out at a club with some friends, waiting in line to get in. Then some chick comes by in heels, wearing a miniskirt and a pushup bra. Who is getting in first? Assume that chick is all coked up, could barely manage to put on her makeup, has a hard time walking in those heels, is she still getting into that club before you? Yes she is.
Women don't do these things because they don't need to. Men come to them. Men throw themselves at women, and women pick and choose.
I was single and was planning on staying that way, but ran into an old "flame" who I had told myself if ever we meet again, I would give it a chance. So I gave it one last chance. She moved in, everything started great. Then she turned into the daughter I never wanted, and I had to babysit her, while she was getting a free ride off of my efforts. Dropped her off at work one day and told her it would be fantastic if she would not come back anymore. Grabbed all her stuff and dropped it off at her moms place, in world record time. That was about 4 years ago now, and I have not even considered dating a girl since then.
I have since gotten into a whole new field of work, it pays exponentially more than I used to make. I have managed to pay off all my debts in a very short time, and starting in about 3 weeks, I will have a job which will last 10 years and pay well into the 6 figure range. I am going to invest in real estate first, then I want to start up a business which will also serve as a school to teach people (i'm expecting mostly men) valuable skills like carpentry and machining. Then once all of that is in place, I am going to do the thing I really want to do. Start up a race team with my dad and friends. Nothing serious, just for fun. Go race cars. Go fast and fix what gets broke.
mr.jr :
"... told her it would be fantastic if she would not come back anymore".
That's gotta be one of the best all time dumps ever - bravo!
Primus_Pilus :
>
Originally Posted by phonebook
> Dating a Christian woman with the mistaken assumption that I would find a NAWALT in the Christian crowd. Boy was I wrong.
Pretty much had the same experience.
Catholic, demure .... really eager to manage my wallet and business financial records.
Then insisted on a $8K diamond ring, and wanted me to front $100K to open a business with her. Couple that with having to sell my house (she of course keeps hers for her kids to live in) and we would then choose a house together. (Nice way to take all that pre-marital equity and convert it to marital assets)
There was much more but that was enough.
VLazarusC :
Turning point for me wasn't a single moment, and it was more about reading and hearing of other people's experiences than experiencing them over a period of time.
ikbenrein :
Turning point:
Fully Completely :
On a side note one of my few FB friends ( guy I went to grade school with ) has a FB friend that I knew from the ski hill in the eighties. She's 48 now and noticed her name and photo on FB 'people you may know' that pops up when you access your page. Took a quick look and realized I didn't miss out on anything special. Had met her once in a bar at a later time when I was in my mid twenties. She had offered to come over after but after having thought about it ducked out to go windsurfing with some buddies instead the next day hehe. Had always kind of regretted it though. She has the blue eyed wrinkle tanned blonde look and the photo is of her and her teenaged daughter. Didn't notice anything about a husband, bet you she is divorced. The other girl she used to hang out with still looks great though..
Myshkin :
>
Originally Posted by Fully Completely
> She's 48 now and noticed her name and photo on FB 'people you may know' that pops up when you access your page.
> Took a quick look and realized I didn't miss out on anything special.
If someone you actually know is among the 'people you may know' then you were doing FB wrong.
The stuff that should show up there are businesses - like Carlos O'Kelly's
The Prisoner :
I really do not think that their was one thing for me that I would call a turning point. I will say that the older I became the more I realized that their words and actions did not match. As a child I would listen to my older sister (much older, about 13yrs my senior) and her friends talking. Often times they would speak of their boyfriends or husbands in a very subhuman manner. They would speak freely in front of me thinking that I was either not listening or not smart enough to grasp what they were actually saying. Sometimes I would hear them talk about going on a girls night out and making out with some random guy, or giving him a blowjob, other times they would talk about or even plot to push the boyfriend or husband in a certain direction. Early on I was learning that men were nothing more than pawns to them. Later on when I was older and started dating I first ran into the young women that would leave me over not being treated right. I never understood this because I was never violent with them or even mean or unfair to them. Some of the other young women that were just friends pointed out to me that it was because I did not have the muscle car or cash to buy stuff that they wanted. Then I ran into the women that cheat. Some of these women were proud that the cheated on me, or others. However all of these women suffered no ill effects from their actions of cheating.
For me, it was after I had left my wife that I really started to come to understand that trying to be with a woman was a loosing battle. She may be an NWALT when you first start dating her, or even after 5 years of marriage. What I came to realize is that it is only her own moral compass that prevents her from becoming an AWALT. However it is not only her own moral compass it is also friends (not your friends) family, church members that will also encourage her to cash out or to cheat and cash out. Even before I became MGTOW I was aware that more and more women were just blatant about being self-entitled. Truthfully because women are unafraid to show how self-entitled they are, really saves me a lot of trouble. Whenever I do go on a date I am usually doing good to make it through the date. So for me it was not just one thing or a single event which was a turning point. For me it took a lot of years of listing to them and watching their actions, being mistreated in some way by them. It took me to become aware that I had to love and respect myself enough to avoid these women. In one way I find it kind of sad that an escort will show me more love and respect than I ever got from a wife or any girlfriend. In another way I am grateful to those escorts for showing me more love and respect because it comes at a much cheaper price than a wife or girlfriend in more ways than just money. I have never parted ways with an escort and felt worse about myself after leaving, I cannot say that about a wife or girlfriend.
Primus_Pilus :
>
Originally Posted by The Prisoner
> .... However it is not only her own moral compass it is also friends (not your friends) family, church members that will also encourage her to cash out or to cheat and cash out. ....
And therein lies the ultimate problem. Women apply the crab solution to each other. When one is about to climb out of the bucket of immorality / unethical behavior they pull each other back in.
The_Joker :
Two stories
1.) I was a blue pill guy. I was in college. It was a course that met every Tuesday and Thursday. This girl sat next to me and she was flirting big time. I'ven a guy with no game could have noticed. The only reason I did not get involved was because she was average looking. During the weekend I thought to myself, why not. She wants it so bad, let me hit that. So she is average looking. So on Tuesday, she sat on the other side of the classroom. She did not look at me at all. Then was class was over, I looked at her hand and there was a ring on her finger. So on Thursday she wanted to get into my pants, and over the weekend she was ready to marry another man. I felt sorry for the guy who was going to marry her. So just said yes to the first guy who proposed? Apparently. That day left me cold. How ruthless she was.
2.) This was a major hit. I was at work. There were some 10 women in the office. The clucking hens were talking about their husbands. You would not believe what they were saying. They had so little respect for the men in their lives. I had to go to the men's room. So I stood up. The women went silent. It was like a bucket of ice water was poured on their backs. One said, "You are getting a real education about what women are really all about." Another woman said, "Let me be honest. The only reason that a woman marries is because she needs the income to raise a child. That if she could, she would go it alone." My whole life I kept hearing the same thing over and over again. How women use men as a wallet.
I started to realize that marriage is not about love. It is about some woman wants a kid and she needs some dude to pay the bills.
ng85 :
My problem for years was that I always projected my values on women and assumed that since they were touted so much in the media and in my educational process that they must be demure princesses while men were slovenly pigs. But it wasn't until I went to college and lived amongst them in the dorms that I realized I was VERY wrong. The girls were the biggest partiers and their rooms were always a mess. The guy's wing might've smelled worse, but we were pretty tidy. It was also in college when I began getting interested in girls. I did everything that movies, websites, and my mother told me about meeting girls. Fuck, my first week in college everyone had to go to a seminar called "Can I Kiss You?" where the mangina speaker said that guys should be gentlemen. And I assumed this guy was right. But any time I acted like a gentleman towards a girl they'd get creeped out. I was a beta orbiter to a girl, but I ended up hooking up with her and losing my virginity to her. I got REALLY clingy and this turned her off, and any time I brought up being "official" she got creeped out. Eventually she grew distant and I found out she had started seeing someone else, all the while I thought we were still together. The same thing kept happening all throughout college with girls showing interest in me, then we'd hook up, and they'd grow cold and then fuck a bunch of other guys.
But it all came to a head about 4 years ago when my longest relationship ended. My ex and I decided to take a break for a few months, but we remained friendly and cordial. And then 2 weeks later I found out she was seeing someone else.....A guy who she met through a blog but had never actually met in person before. I was thrown for a loop - She told me she wanted to be "together" but with space, and she said she'd be pissed off beyond all imagination if I dated anyone else. So I didn't pursue anyone, yet she did. Lesson #1: What a girl says and what she does are two different things. I was perfectly fine having a break from her, but the fact that she just decided to abruptly ruin any chance of reconciliation by seeing someone just confused the hell out of me. Lesson #2: Women NEED relationships, and will only leave one if they have another suitor lined up.
And then I learned the biggest lesson of all: You only find out what a woman is truly like when you're breaking up and she has either no emotional attachment to you, or she has nothing but hate for you.
I did some online dating after that and that was just a miserable time, seeing about 10 girls who would either disappear after our date and not return texts or tell me they didn't feel any attraction. I then ended up seeing a girl I met through a mutual friend for a couple months, when suddenly she flaked on me and stopped returning my calls or texts. And what day did she just disappear on? MY BIRTHDAY PARTY. I was so fucking embarrassed and humiliated, because all my friends wanted to meet her, and she had even talked to me earlier in the day about what time she should come by.
It was at that point that I searched on Google for help on situations like this and came across the AVfM radio show with Dr. Tara Palmatier about toxic women, and I was hooked. I signed up for Shrink4Men and then found the MGTOW boards and then the rest is history. I'm amazed at how far I've come in just a few short years. Something tells me my life would've been a lot easier and filled with less drama if the manosphere was as widely available as it is today.
Devil :
There's no one thing I can point to, exactly. Nothing dramatic like a lot of other guys. No messy divorce, no getting cheated on by a carousel rider, hell I haven't even held a LTR. I recognized from a very young age that women were only happy when they were in complete control over a guy. They want to tell you where you can go, who you can see and what you can do. It was everywhere in tv, movies, books, you name it. Shockingly enough, the men I looked up to at that age were okay with this and even agreed to a certain extent. So I promised myself as a kid that I would never let anyone have complete control over me, man or woman.
Now, I'm all for compromise and being equal or whatever, but the cost for what women laughingly call love is too high. My freedom > access to vagina. Hell, I value my game and movie collection over access to vagina. ...now that I think about it, I'd value a decent BLT over access to vagina.
Macavity :
With me, it was becoming financially literate. It is not that men and women are different, they also have different financial statements. On a woman's financial statement, she has an asset called HUSBAND. Like how assets put money in our pockets, the husband puts money in her pockets. She may sell or upgrade her asset depending on whether she can get a better one or if the asset ceases to perform.
I noticed the enthusiasm investors go in checking out new potential investments is the same exact enthusiasm women have when checking out new guys. Every asset that is not owned is considered 'for sale'. Every man that is not owned is considered 'for sale'.
We're just a cog in their financial statement or a clown in their entertainment experience. Once I saw dating from a financial context, I could never be turned back again.
GabrielKnight :
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> My problem for years was that I always projected my values on women and assumed that since they were touted so much in the media and in my educational process that they must be demure princesses while men were slovenly pigs.
I assume that most young men were raised to think that way. At least I thought that way when I was much younger. Boy was I wrong!
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> Lesson #1: What a girl says and what she does are two different things.
This! This was probably the most confusing things about women I had to learn and it took me a mighty long time to finally understand that simple concept. That women would flat out lie to you or were so deluded that they could not see the contradictions in their own behavior stunned me.
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> Lesson #2: Women NEED relationships, and will only leave one if they have another suitor lined up.
I found this to be true for many women but not all. Women who know that they will not have any problem finding another guy withing a few days or weeks will discard a man instantly, once they become bored or when he doesn´t live up to her expectations. Women who don´t have that much self-esteem or know that they aren´t that attractive might hold on to a man as long as possible, until the next guy shows up.
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> And then I learned the biggest lesson of all:
> You only find out what a woman is truly like when you're breaking up and she has either no emotional attachment to you, or she has nothing but hate for you.
This was one of the most important lessons I learned about women. You can never trust them, no matter how often they tell you that they love you. Today you are the greatest guy on the planet and the next day you are the biggest scumbag, even worse than Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Ted Bundy combined.
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> Something tells me my life would've been a lot easier and filled with less drama if the manosphere was as widely available as it is today.
So very true. The internet is a blessing and I am glad for all the young guys out there who have all this information availlable.
ng85 :
>
Originally Posted by GabrielKnight
> This! This was probably the most confusing things about women I had to learn and it took me a mighty long time to finally understand that simple concept.
> That women would flat out lie to you or were so deluded that they could not see the contradictions in their own behavior stunned me.
There's also a double standard when it comes to concepts of responsibility. A man is considered strong if he can say "No" and mean it and have people respect it. Part of GMOW was learning how to stand up for myself and not agree to everything laid before me, which at the time was the path of least resistance in dealing with other people. But it always confused me when a girl seemed into me and would give me her number and never respond, or say she wanted to see me and then make up every excuse under the sun for why she couldn't make it. But one thing I've learned is that 20-something women are at the peak of their sexuality, and therefore at the peak of their power over men. They're not expected to live up to our standards because there are too many manginas and pussybeggars willing to cut a pretty girl some slack (Much like I'm sure a man with wealth and status could get away with lots of things a poor man couldn't). If you're not able to treat a pretty girl like you would a man then you're worsening the problem and adding to this culture of toxic women being allowed to do whatever they want (AKA feminism).
>
Originally Posted by GabrielKnight
> I found this to be true for many women but not all.
> Women who know that they will not have any problem finding another guy withing a few days or weeks will discard a man instantly, once they become bored or when he doesn´t live up to her expectations. Women who don´t have that much self-esteem or know that they aren´t that attractive might hold on to a man as long as possible, until the next guy shows up.
My sister is, for lack of a better term, a loser. Out of myself and all the guys I know, none of us has ever been the one to officially end a relationship. In fact, I'd say easily 90% of relationships are ended by the woman. But my sister has had boyfriend after boyfriend, and it's always the guy who dumps her. And the thing is she invests so much into her relationships that she doesn't have any friends, so once the boyfriend is gone she's left on her own....Until she meets a new guy, many times a good friend of her ex, and the cycle repeats over and over again.
I also have to piggyback onto my point about girls in their 20's being at the peak of their power. I'm not a terrible looking guy and I've learned to not be such a mangina, but I've only really been with 3 girls in my almost 30 years who I could consider to be girlfriends, and I still have trouble meeting women or keeping them interested. Meanwhile my sister is 24 and has had easily 15-20 boyfriends. She's not all that pretty and she's fat and has a nasty attitude and doesn't have a job and dropped out of school, but she's still able to find some simp to date her. I guarantee her luck will run out once 30 hits, but it's just amazing that someone who looks like her (Who I'd never even notice walking down the street) has been able to consistently have relationships for almost 10 years.
Chairborne :
>
Originally Posted by ng85
> There's also a double standard when it comes to concepts of responsibility...
> If you're not able to treat a pretty girl like you would a man then you're worsening the problem and adding to this culture of toxic women being allowed to do whatever they want (AKA feminism).
I always tried to treat hot women as I would men. In university I was blacklisted for doing so by the dormitory "hot girls clique" because I treated them like normal human beings. It wasn't enough that I was civil, I had to basically kiss their asses just to not be villified. That was a huge eye opener. So even back in my blue pill days, I nonetheless treated less attractive women better than hot ones, just on principle.
Chris :
>
Originally Posted by Chairborne
> I always tried to treat hot women as I would men.
> In university I was blacklisted for doing so by the dormitory "hot girls clique" because I treated them like normal human beings.
> It wasn't enough that I was civil, I had to basically kiss their asses just to not be villified. That was a huge eye opener.
> So even back in my blue pill days, I nonetheless treated less attractive women better than hot ones, just on principle.
Possibly because women in general get the wrong impression from how often guys enjoy fighting and even merely arguing, in order to test each other's mettle or hold each other accountable (knowing instinctively that other men can handle that indirect respect), what those chicks didn't realize was that treating women like men was a massive compliment from a man.
The thing is, men have no problem admiring men. If I know someone who can demonstrate self-defense techniques, Jujitsu, engine-repair skills, slam-dunking abilities or wilderness survival tactics, I will watch in admiration, listen keenly, ask questions and, in general, aspire to that level of knowledge and physical ability.
For instance: I'd never join the military, as I'm too stubborn and averse to authority to go through that -- but I have immense admiration for soldiers and veterans, because they had what it took to stick it out, and I did not. A soldier or vet is my better. Simple enough. Whether something directly applies to me or not is utterly besides the point. To a woman, it wouldn't be.
Even when a man does something that I can't or won't do, I know I can learn something from it, aspire to something about it. In essence: I'm impressed. Guys impress each other. They naturally and instinctively try to be increasingly awesome, not usurp those who are more awesome, or pull them down, as women try to do.
As a sane man, I easily see how separate my personal tastes in lifestyle are from the validity of those who differ -- because, again in the case of military men, they're stone-cold bad-asses, and I am not.
If a man hears another's war stories, he'll listen acutely and respond, "That's cool" or "That's amazing." The storyteller might shrug or say something like "Thanks," but it's a formality, as they both know that yes, he's a bad-ass, but that this is because he put in the work to get there. He had what it took, summoned everything, and did what he had to do to become better. It wasn't given to him; he didn't feel entitled to it; there wasn't a magical pill he could take. He earned that bad-ass-ness. He worked for that shit.
...whereas a woman will see a woman and, instead of admiring how much she's undergone to reach a level of amazingness, or aspiring to be smarter and stronger like her, she'll be jealous. She'll think, "What does she have that I don't?"
And the cool thing about men, in terms of the examples above, is that we love to teach each other shit. I used to listen to excellent drummers and watch their skills unfold in real time in my ears. After a number of years, I played so well that other fellas would come up on stage after the gig, check out my kit, compliment my drumming style and ask questions. I'd show them everything I could think of to be helpful. A couple of them went on to buy drum sets and form their own bands.
It's the same thing when I hear and watch amazing guitar players. This cat, he had a level of patience on a guitar neck that I still haven't summoned, and he practiced and practiced and now he's a bad-ass. We both know this, so he'll accept my praise graciously. If I have questions, he'll show me what he's doing on those frets.
It's even relevant in terms of dating: If a guy you know, even barely, is with a woman whom you find incredibly attractive, as soon as she leaves the room, you'll tell him, "Damn -- good job!" Whereas a woman will plot behind her friend's back to steal the guy or, at the very least, consider her a lesser friend because she's got a better man.
For women, envy supersedes admiration. For men, aspiration to be more like our betters supersedes resentment. Any "envy" felt is used to stir ourselves, to feel provoked and egged on, to have other men light fires under our asses to do better. Not to stew and feel some childish bitterness.
(I know I attached a rather long tail onto that kite, but y'know me, once I get going on the keyboard.)
ng85 :
And this is why civilization as we know it was built by men and made in our image - Because we're willing to get off our asses and learn and grow as people and figure out how to improve the world around us. For the past 40 years women have been given every opportunity men have had to improve the world, and with the exception of a small percentage almost no women have answered the call to action. It just leads me to believe that women have been and will always be the leisure class. It's not a societal thing, it's hard-wired into our brains. The only problem is that now women are told they're better than men and they can have it all, so not only are they lazy, they're also entitled and cunty. I'm honestly surprised the amount of things introduced to society by women hasn't decreased by now.
A stunning hot 10 is on the same level as a 60-year-old self-made multimillionaire. It seems odd to think about it, but these are both two people who are at the peak of their value in their respective ways (Women are valued based on looks, men on resources and status). So what's wrong with this picture? Men are biologically wired to respect women more on how they look than what they do, whereas a man has to work his ass off to achieve the same thing. So women aspire to not have to do anything in life, while men aspire to accomplish all they can in life. Yes, all women aspire to be lazy assholes. And this is why men are considered the creators of civilization. No amount of feminism can change human biology.
Chris :
Great points. To re-contextualize an old Chris Rock quote, "These days, a man has to fly to reach the same places that a woman can just walk to."
Vincent :
Warren Farrell.
Primus_Pilus :
>
Originally Posted by Chris
> And the cool thing about men, in terms of the examples above, is that we love to teach each other shit.
Total agreement on this. I think once you GYOW is that the status games go away. And teaching each other new skills is how you get cool points. God know I LOVE passing my shooting skills along and I have picked up some neat little close combat and knife tricks from a couple of friends. Currently mentoring another friend on how to do my job (my current skillset is apparently WHITE HOT in demand for InfoSec)
My point is that good men will build each other UP.
It's the manginas that cut each other down for status points with females.
ng85 :
>
Originally Posted by centurion2000
> Total agreement on this. I think once you GYOW is that the status games go away.
> And teaching each other new skills is how you get cool points. God know I LOVE passing my shooting skills along and I have picked up some neat little close combat and knife tricks from a couple of friends.
> Point is that good men will build each other up.
> Its the manginas that cut each other down for status points with females.
When I was a nerd in high school I used to hate a lot of people, both male and female, because I was basically invisible. But I've found that as I've gotten older and chilled out a bit I can relate to guys on a more basic level and usually get along with any of them (Unless they prove to be really hostile or absolute manginas). I went out to a bar this weekend with a friend of mine, and when I was there I saw this really good-looking guy start hooking up with this really good-looking girl. My friend and I were outside when this good-looking couple emerged to have a smoke. The chick really wanted to leave to go home and fuck, but the guy heard my friend and I talking about the Walking Dead and he just joins in on our conversation. I could tell this chick was furious, but this guy who looked like an Armani model was just hanging out and shooting the shit with us. I guarantee his lifestyle is a lot different than mine, but somehow we were able to connect and our personalities matched enough that we could carry on a good 10-minute long conversation.
I think all men have a natural camaraderie that we can relate to on a base level because of our gender. We're able to empathize and relate to one another, as well as teach skills to others or have a willingness to learn, so we can always find something to interest us about another man. But women just think about me me me, and if anyone shows them up or is "better" than them, as someone mentioned, they get jealous or get their egos hurt and they end up hating her. This is why so many ugly feminists are trying to "teach" men that standards of beauty are bullshit, all because they were dealt a bad genetic hand that will ensure they won't reach a high level of status. Anything that reminds them that they're not perfect is like Kryptonite to them. But where men succeed is that we realize we're NOT perfect. In my experience I've found that accepting my imperfections makes me strive to improve. And if I can't improve on them then I've learned to just own the imperfections and accept them as a part of who I am.
Eiji :
I figure I had that notion ever since I made the mistake of going thru that thing called "puberty".....
I just didnt have a word for it....
MGTOWFOREVER :
A lifetime of dealing with females on different levels. Women are such a pain in the ass.
Natural Born MGTOW :
My turning point was in 1984. I had the luck or the misfortune to read Ester Vilar "Der dressierte Mann" In English" The manipulated man" at a very early age. It was a real eye opener but the best thing was me observing female behaviour after having read the book. Geez' the most troubling to me, was most probably, that I observed the things she wrote in her book in real life.
Most probably the saying "either you can understand women or you can love women" bears some kind of truth. After having read the book I never saw women in the same light I saw them before. Observing my friends helped me a lot to figure things out back in my youth. I saw with my own eyes family, friends I just understood on a subconscious level that marriage wasn't for me.
I don't hate women I'm just not compatible with them . . . I transmit on a whole different frequency. That's all there is to.
Cheers
frog :
After many loss's and few wins, a guy has to sooner or later admit that it's not going to happen. Wish I'd learned quicker, but I still did ok, considering I didn't lose near as much as a lot a guys.
Insidious_Sid :
Another thing was the 15 years I spent outside of the mating arena while with the ex during "courtship", engagement and marriage. It seemed like such a different world - only 15 years later - and if you were not connected via smartphone you were a social outcast. It also seemed like meeting in person actually had less relevance than people on a woman's contact list. I mean, she can't control a real-life person, but with social media and text she can call up any human avatar she wants/needs in a particular moment. I found getting into women's social hive to be complex, and quite tiresome. Games like "keep them interesting but not too interested" or "Hey I'll text Sid because my other plans fell through." Some would even have a dry-spell and go through their contact lists - one actually said "I'm just going through my contact list here...". And then I deleted her.
But yes, the way the mating arena works now is just insane, and if you're not tethered to your phone you probably won't do nearly as well as someone who is. I recall family upset I didn't response to their facebook requests to visit when they went through town. I told them I go on Facebook twice a month to put a picture or two of what the kids are up to. They undoubtedly have Facebook Messenger and respond to every "ding and dong" the thing makes. I tried Messenger for two days and had to uninstall it. Seems a lot of people fuck around sending cute cat pictures all day while at work. Maddening.
Azure Nomad :
My turning point for sure was when I decided I want to focus on myself and not what was perceived as normal for my age. I gave up on the idea looking for love that is found in romcoms and learned to love myself far more instead.
African-Daoist :
I cant specifically refer to one event per se that was a point of no return but it was the little mind games and irrational responses that got me over time. One event I do think played a part in my reassessment of female's, was when I was attacked by a friends mistress(he was married) because as she said I called her a prostitute and asked him why he was cheating on his wife. Of course I had done none of such,but later on I realised that because I did not pay attention to her she took offence and became insecure and assumed I disapproved of the relationship, I myself found it hard to believe someone could be that insecure but there she was staring me in the face.
Needless to say despite it being evident that I had made no such comment everyone at our table seemed to be in support of her despite it being evident to everyone that I had not made such a comment. It made me reevaluate the people I spend my time with and also how easy it is for a female to create an unpleasant outcome for a male. If not for self restraint and ignoring my bruised ego I would probably have been in jail for murder or been killed myself because all the white knights thought to show their loyalty to her but I ignored their taunting and her assault and simply walked away.
The situation was later resolved but from that point on I realised the risks of interacting with females.
stanmsl :
I knew something wasn't right for years but couldn't put my finger on it. Fell victim to the friend zone / white knight mentality often. Thankfully didn't go through the marriage / divorce / kids access horror stories I have read at length on here.
Two incidents happened within 3 months of each other early in 2016.
1) I found out a close platonic female friend who I'd known for 12 years was faking a chronic illness in a shocking way, I'd looked after her for years.
2) A woman who I'd been involved with behind her partners back for 4 years who had promised me for ages that we'd be together when she left him, suddenly did a complete 180 when newly single. She did this the week my dad was in hospital having a major life saving operation.
MGTOWFOREVER :
Women fake illness often for attention. Lots of women do that "I can't breathe" bullshit when they are not being catered too. NEVER EVER get with involved with a woman that is seeing someone else. Your life(literally) is way more valuable. Chad might find out and then try to kill you. It has happened many times and there was even a local incident with something like that happening. That bullshit of "I will leave him so we will be together" is exactly that....BULLSHIT. If she was going to get rid of him then she would have already done it without even telling you. She was stringing you along and enjoyed using you.
I hope your dad is doing well.
stanmsl :
> Women fake illness often for attention. Lots of women do that "I can't breathe" bullshit when they are not being catered too.
Funny you should say that......the illness she claimed to suffer from was an allergy to scents such as aftershaves and deodorants. She couldn't be in crowded places and we always had to make allowances for her..................... until I caught her in a packed out bar on the busiest night of the year.
> NEVER EVER get with involved with a woman that is seeing someone else.
She was actually living with him, he was 10 years older than her, I was the CHAD at the time, something obviously went wrong.
Got the standard LJBF rejection, accepted it then blocked her a month later and shut off all contact. Funny thing is that she has always avoided me ever since, we only live half a mile apart but I have only seen her once in 2 years and that was from a distance. I obviously did something right......
MGTOWFOREVER :
I said it once and I'll say it again when a woman goes out for a "Girls night out" its to get attention from men. Not to relax and have fun.
You should have never got involved with her at all. She was playing you from the start. I have a girl that ignores me when she sees me and wouldn't even look my way if I was having a heart attack. Funny thing is I played her at her own game and she didnt like it. She makes out she was the victim but yet her very first words to me were nothing but lies and she expected to control me.
>
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
...October 1988 , on a cool fall Arkansas evening , I stood in the front yard of my house, hand cuffed !, as a sheriffs deputy and my soon to be ex had a discussion on what I suppose was every reason I should be treated as a common criminal . I looked up at the stars of a clear sky and promised my self that this was to be the one and only time for me to endure captivity. I've been MYGTOW ever since.
Witam Was :
>
So you hadn't done anything with her, but she made up the story entirely? Sheesh...
Right, We worked together and she keep flirting with me at the office. Then I find one day that she made up this story about me and her. Then her coworker told me she got fired from that job and she got back with her ex and was moving out of state.
mr.jr :
From Chairborn's post above: "....this chick is trying out for the part. I had the distinct pleasure of rejecting her, telling her we wanted somebody "less fat"."
Oh yeah - Sweeeeet!!!!
Chairborne :
>
> Right, We worked together and she keep flirting with me at the office. Then I find one day that she made up this story about me and her.
> Then her coworker told me she got fired from that job and she got back with her ex and was moving out of state.
I don't know if it's slander, libel, or "bearing false witness" but shit like that should be illegal. It might be, but no cop has ever enforced it to my knowledge...
Fully Completely :
I 'fondly' remember one incident in my mid twenties when I was looking for direction and being the blue pill romantic I was wanting to 'settle down' with a good local woman.
There was this attractive girl that went to the same school I did before that a friend of mine re introduced me to at a volleyball / corn roast GTG he organized. Actually it was the reason he invited me as she was available. We didn't really hit it off at first as far as I could tell as we are a little different ( me the introvert and her sort of a bar fly ) but hey she was cute, had a nice little body and did seem sweet in a dumb simple way. Of course her 'best friend' was there and I gather I didn't win over any points with her but I did make a GREAT effort earlier at the volleyball game by removing my shirt to show off my upper body ( was in my prime bodybuilding mode then ). I also tried to be as extroverted as possible that even though it was totally exhausting for me.
I kept pursuing her a few more weeks giving it my best shot and figured if it didn't work out I would just concentrate on the upcoming equipment move I had planned for my machine shop business to another rental loft. Sort of like I wanted to secure a relationship right then and there as I knew I wouldn't have as much time and energy for a while once the move began. That and I hadn't been so attracted to a girl for quite
a while so I didn't want to miss the boat so to speak.
We went on a couple of platonic dates until her 'best friend' introduced her to her BF's brother ( as in brother in law ) to get me out of the picture. I pressed on a little more until once later on the phone she admitted speaking to her former room mate / high school girlfriend about me and how she was basically counseled that she shouldn't
go on any dates with me or anything. ( in other words she was told that I was a creep )
This friend of hers was on the carousel big time in the early eighties with the rich kids at the nearby ski resort.
When I finally got the message I sabotaged what I could by getting a buzz cut that didn't suit me at all, just to get closure. That one time she saw me like that was the last, as she asked me whether I had to go training or something to get me to leave.
Leave I did !
That was the one incident that hurt me the most : Girl I was interested in was told
to stay away from me by her peers. So much for finding a nice girl, getting married and
helping me build a business
Last I heard she ended up marrying some charismatic party guy that would bounce between jobs.
I was the epitome of naivety.
sergiovalmendea :
My turning point was realizing that when I busted my ass to fix her fuckups, I got little to no appreciation. All I wanted was for her to act right. So I stopped doing anything for her. After a long time she asked why and assumed it was another woman. I poked holes in her logic by stating " Its Friday night, I got a pocket full of cash and a car outside. If there was another woman or women wouldn't I be gone right now? Why would I still be here on the couch?" I just stopped caring because all I asked for was for her to act right, stop seeking fun and track down a better paying job, get her GED and her life on track and it was met with defiance, drunken rantings and blaming me for everything including bad weather " its your fault its raining". Oh, and I refused to celebrate Valentines Day and went out with friends and came home at 4am. She came home at all hours of the night and I didn't pay any mind cause I was hoping she got arrested and went to jail. Yet this was the day I fired her ass and disavowed her as my girlfriend after she hurled glass ashtrays and crystal blocks at me. My arm and leg was bruised and swollen. She ripped a bracelet off my wrist and I started dialing the police which halted her assault. I should have called the cops but there weren't any marks until a day later. In California they arrest both parties and I didn't feel like dealing with DV cops at 5am. I just fired her and said find a place and get the fuck out. I'm not your boyfriend anymore, fix your own shit and have half the bills on the first or you're booted ( I'm lazy about moving but the camel's back is broken now so I will be breaking my lease if I get approved for a loan for a house). She came up with her half of bill money. I sleep on the couch cause its over. Hating that I will have to shell out money if I brake the lease. There is peace for now but a drunk will be a drunk.
Thank God one of my ex's ( we broke up amicably and on good terms) emailed me with info on a guy who can help me get a house with great loan rates. My lease ends in October but I'm not staying that long. Fingers are crossed and hoping this guy can help me get the loan. Nothing happens overnight but you never know until you try. And I'm fucking trying my ass off.
MGTOW and other sites and using logic helped me realize that my feelings are valid, I deserve respect because I earned it, I'm a good guy, don't put up with bullshit and call it out when I see it and stupid shit has no business in the same space as me. Being over 40 helps to spot red flags too.
RantandReason :
here was no single moment, but I do remember the "thought" that started it. I had been a total mangina for the vast majority of my life. I grew up on tales of knights rescuing women and loving them from afar, and when I found "the one" I would dedicate myself to her to the exclusion of all other women. I would spend years trying to be as amazing to these women as possible thinking this was what you were supposed to do. I finally came to a realization, that in all of these "relationships" there was 1 common factor, me. So I stepped back from women for awhile. One day while doing some marketing research I stumbled onto a book, and it was one of those elusive obvious moments. The book was called "the psychology of men and women". I never read it, but the title alone was what finally woke me up, that men and women ARE different. I know to alot of people that may seem completely obvious, but I had been operating my entire life under the delusion that men and women were exactly equal except for the dangly bits.
This then lead me into researching all kinds of different subjects like evolution, neurolinguistic programming, biology, evolutionary psychology, and just about every self help book you can think of. That's around when I found the PUA community, and they had been doing what I had been doing, only for longer. I dove in head first and became really serious about it. I would go out and practice different techniques, try my own ideas, and it was a pretty crazy time.
Then I had the thought. And my thought was this. How much effort have I put in, in order to get to this place I'm at now. Where I am attractive to the opposite sex, where I have spent countless hours examining my own behaviours, and facing down my beliefs head on and questioning them with as much intellectual courage as I mustered up when I finally came to the conclusion I was an atheist. It is NOT easy, and for anyone who has taken a belief, and questioned it, and realized they were wrong all along, you will know that it's not an easy thing to do. And I go out and meet women who party all the time and have fun all the time and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE did I see, or hear mention, that she was doing anything like what I and countless other men were doing. And still to this day I do not know of a single women who has put in the kinds of effort PUAs do in order to make themselves a better person and more attractive to the opposite sex on a meaningful level.
I remember one example given by a PUA speaker and he said imagine you're a doctor. You've spent the last 3 years saving lives in Africa. You're a world class physician. And you're out at a club with some friends, waiting in line to get in. Then some chick comes by in heels, wearing a miniskirt and a pushup bra. Who is getting in first? Assume that chick is all coked up, could barely manage to put on her makeup, has a hard time walking in those heels, is she still getting into that club before you? Yes she is.
Women don't do these things because they don't need to. Men come to them. Men throw themselves at women, and women pick and choose.
I was single and was planning on staying that way, but ran into an old "flame" who I had told myself if ever we meet again, I would give it a chance. So I gave it one last chance. She moved in, everything started great. Then she turned into the daughter I never wanted, and I had to babysit her, while she was getting a free ride off of my efforts. Dropped her off at work one day and told her it would be fantastic if she would not come back anymore. Grabbed all her stuff and dropped it off at her moms place, in world record time. That was about 4 years ago now, and I have not even considered dating a girl since then.
I have since gotten into a whole new field of work, it pays exponentially more than I used to make. I have managed to pay off all my debts in a very short time, and starting in about 3 weeks, I will have a job which will last 10 years and pay well into the 6 figure range. I am going to invest in real estate first, then I want to start up a business which will also serve as a school to teach people (i'm expecting mostly men) valuable skills like carpentry and machining. Then once all of that is in place, I am going to do the thing I really want to do. Start up a race team with my dad and friends. Nothing serious, just for fun. Go race cars. Go fast and fix what gets broke.
mr.jr :
"... told her it would be fantastic if she would not come back anymore".
That's gotta be one of the best all time dumps ever - bravo!
Primus_Pilus :
>
> Dating a Christian woman with the mistaken assumption that I would find a NAWALT in the Christian crowd. Boy was I wrong.
Pretty much had the same experience.
Catholic, demure .... really eager to manage my wallet and business financial records.
Then insisted on a $8K diamond ring, and wanted me to front $100K to open a business with her. Couple that with having to sell my house (she of course keeps hers for her kids to live in) and we would then choose a house together. (Nice way to take all that pre-marital equity and convert it to marital assets)
There was much more but that was enough.
VLazarusC :
Turning point for me wasn't a single moment, and it was more about reading and hearing of other people's experiences than experiencing them over a period of time.
ikbenrein :
Turning point:
- Paying 2000 euro for a fake relationship.. nope, I was too stubborn,
- seeing what women were really attracted to, having game knowledge and thousand of approaches to back this knowledge up,.. nope, I was too stubborn.
- Then there was this time when I started dating this girl and made her fall totally in love with me. I had beaten the game, cracked the code; and the result was somewhat inhuman: she would literally do everything I say. It was like talking to a robot rather than a human being, which made relating to this robot impossible. But I was still stubborn, that girl was just too easy for me, the right girl would be right for me.
Fully Completely :
On a side note one of my few FB friends ( guy I went to grade school with ) has a FB friend that I knew from the ski hill in the eighties. She's 48 now and noticed her name and photo on FB 'people you may know' that pops up when you access your page. Took a quick look and realized I didn't miss out on anything special. Had met her once in a bar at a later time when I was in my mid twenties. She had offered to come over after but after having thought about it ducked out to go windsurfing with some buddies instead the next day hehe. Had always kind of regretted it though. She has the blue eyed wrinkle tanned blonde look and the photo is of her and her teenaged daughter. Didn't notice anything about a husband, bet you she is divorced. The other girl she used to hang out with still looks great though..
Myshkin :
>
> She's 48 now and noticed her name and photo on FB 'people you may know' that pops up when you access your page.
> Took a quick look and realized I didn't miss out on anything special.
If someone you actually know is among the 'people you may know' then you were doing FB wrong.
The stuff that should show up there are businesses - like Carlos O'Kelly's
The Prisoner :
I really do not think that their was one thing for me that I would call a turning point. I will say that the older I became the more I realized that their words and actions did not match. As a child I would listen to my older sister (much older, about 13yrs my senior) and her friends talking. Often times they would speak of their boyfriends or husbands in a very subhuman manner. They would speak freely in front of me thinking that I was either not listening or not smart enough to grasp what they were actually saying. Sometimes I would hear them talk about going on a girls night out and making out with some random guy, or giving him a blowjob, other times they would talk about or even plot to push the boyfriend or husband in a certain direction. Early on I was learning that men were nothing more than pawns to them. Later on when I was older and started dating I first ran into the young women that would leave me over not being treated right. I never understood this because I was never violent with them or even mean or unfair to them. Some of the other young women that were just friends pointed out to me that it was because I did not have the muscle car or cash to buy stuff that they wanted. Then I ran into the women that cheat. Some of these women were proud that the cheated on me, or others. However all of these women suffered no ill effects from their actions of cheating.
For me, it was after I had left my wife that I really started to come to understand that trying to be with a woman was a loosing battle. She may be an NWALT when you first start dating her, or even after 5 years of marriage. What I came to realize is that it is only her own moral compass that prevents her from becoming an AWALT. However it is not only her own moral compass it is also friends (not your friends) family, church members that will also encourage her to cash out or to cheat and cash out. Even before I became MGTOW I was aware that more and more women were just blatant about being self-entitled. Truthfully because women are unafraid to show how self-entitled they are, really saves me a lot of trouble. Whenever I do go on a date I am usually doing good to make it through the date. So for me it was not just one thing or a single event which was a turning point. For me it took a lot of years of listing to them and watching their actions, being mistreated in some way by them. It took me to become aware that I had to love and respect myself enough to avoid these women. In one way I find it kind of sad that an escort will show me more love and respect than I ever got from a wife or any girlfriend. In another way I am grateful to those escorts for showing me more love and respect because it comes at a much cheaper price than a wife or girlfriend in more ways than just money. I have never parted ways with an escort and felt worse about myself after leaving, I cannot say that about a wife or girlfriend.
Primus_Pilus :
>
> .... However it is not only her own moral compass it is also friends (not your friends) family, church members that will also encourage her to cash out or to cheat and cash out. ....
And therein lies the ultimate problem. Women apply the crab solution to each other. When one is about to climb out of the bucket of immorality / unethical behavior they pull each other back in.
The_Joker :
Two stories
1.) I was a blue pill guy. I was in college. It was a course that met every Tuesday and Thursday. This girl sat next to me and she was flirting big time. I'ven a guy with no game could have noticed. The only reason I did not get involved was because she was average looking. During the weekend I thought to myself, why not. She wants it so bad, let me hit that. So she is average looking. So on Tuesday, she sat on the other side of the classroom. She did not look at me at all. Then was class was over, I looked at her hand and there was a ring on her finger. So on Thursday she wanted to get into my pants, and over the weekend she was ready to marry another man. I felt sorry for the guy who was going to marry her. So just said yes to the first guy who proposed? Apparently. That day left me cold. How ruthless she was.
2.) This was a major hit. I was at work. There were some 10 women in the office. The clucking hens were talking about their husbands. You would not believe what they were saying. They had so little respect for the men in their lives. I had to go to the men's room. So I stood up. The women went silent. It was like a bucket of ice water was poured on their backs. One said, "You are getting a real education about what women are really all about." Another woman said, "Let me be honest. The only reason that a woman marries is because she needs the income to raise a child. That if she could, she would go it alone." My whole life I kept hearing the same thing over and over again. How women use men as a wallet.
I started to realize that marriage is not about love. It is about some woman wants a kid and she needs some dude to pay the bills.
ng85 :
My problem for years was that I always projected my values on women and assumed that since they were touted so much in the media and in my educational process that they must be demure princesses while men were slovenly pigs. But it wasn't until I went to college and lived amongst them in the dorms that I realized I was VERY wrong. The girls were the biggest partiers and their rooms were always a mess. The guy's wing might've smelled worse, but we were pretty tidy. It was also in college when I began getting interested in girls. I did everything that movies, websites, and my mother told me about meeting girls. Fuck, my first week in college everyone had to go to a seminar called "Can I Kiss You?" where the mangina speaker said that guys should be gentlemen. And I assumed this guy was right. But any time I acted like a gentleman towards a girl they'd get creeped out. I was a beta orbiter to a girl, but I ended up hooking up with her and losing my virginity to her. I got REALLY clingy and this turned her off, and any time I brought up being "official" she got creeped out. Eventually she grew distant and I found out she had started seeing someone else, all the while I thought we were still together. The same thing kept happening all throughout college with girls showing interest in me, then we'd hook up, and they'd grow cold and then fuck a bunch of other guys.
But it all came to a head about 4 years ago when my longest relationship ended. My ex and I decided to take a break for a few months, but we remained friendly and cordial. And then 2 weeks later I found out she was seeing someone else.....A guy who she met through a blog but had never actually met in person before. I was thrown for a loop - She told me she wanted to be "together" but with space, and she said she'd be pissed off beyond all imagination if I dated anyone else. So I didn't pursue anyone, yet she did. Lesson #1: What a girl says and what she does are two different things. I was perfectly fine having a break from her, but the fact that she just decided to abruptly ruin any chance of reconciliation by seeing someone just confused the hell out of me. Lesson #2: Women NEED relationships, and will only leave one if they have another suitor lined up.
And then I learned the biggest lesson of all: You only find out what a woman is truly like when you're breaking up and she has either no emotional attachment to you, or she has nothing but hate for you.
I did some online dating after that and that was just a miserable time, seeing about 10 girls who would either disappear after our date and not return texts or tell me they didn't feel any attraction. I then ended up seeing a girl I met through a mutual friend for a couple months, when suddenly she flaked on me and stopped returning my calls or texts. And what day did she just disappear on? MY BIRTHDAY PARTY. I was so fucking embarrassed and humiliated, because all my friends wanted to meet her, and she had even talked to me earlier in the day about what time she should come by.
It was at that point that I searched on Google for help on situations like this and came across the AVfM radio show with Dr. Tara Palmatier about toxic women, and I was hooked. I signed up for Shrink4Men and then found the MGTOW boards and then the rest is history. I'm amazed at how far I've come in just a few short years. Something tells me my life would've been a lot easier and filled with less drama if the manosphere was as widely available as it is today.
Devil :
There's no one thing I can point to, exactly. Nothing dramatic like a lot of other guys. No messy divorce, no getting cheated on by a carousel rider, hell I haven't even held a LTR. I recognized from a very young age that women were only happy when they were in complete control over a guy. They want to tell you where you can go, who you can see and what you can do. It was everywhere in tv, movies, books, you name it. Shockingly enough, the men I looked up to at that age were okay with this and even agreed to a certain extent. So I promised myself as a kid that I would never let anyone have complete control over me, man or woman.
Now, I'm all for compromise and being equal or whatever, but the cost for what women laughingly call love is too high. My freedom > access to vagina. Hell, I value my game and movie collection over access to vagina. ...now that I think about it, I'd value a decent BLT over access to vagina.
Macavity :
With me, it was becoming financially literate. It is not that men and women are different, they also have different financial statements. On a woman's financial statement, she has an asset called HUSBAND. Like how assets put money in our pockets, the husband puts money in her pockets. She may sell or upgrade her asset depending on whether she can get a better one or if the asset ceases to perform.
I noticed the enthusiasm investors go in checking out new potential investments is the same exact enthusiasm women have when checking out new guys. Every asset that is not owned is considered 'for sale'. Every man that is not owned is considered 'for sale'.
We're just a cog in their financial statement or a clown in their entertainment experience. Once I saw dating from a financial context, I could never be turned back again.
GabrielKnight :
>
> My problem for years was that I always projected my values on women and assumed that since they were touted so much in the media and in my educational process that they must be demure princesses while men were slovenly pigs.
I assume that most young men were raised to think that way. At least I thought that way when I was much younger. Boy was I wrong!
>
> Lesson #1: What a girl says and what she does are two different things.
This! This was probably the most confusing things about women I had to learn and it took me a mighty long time to finally understand that simple concept. That women would flat out lie to you or were so deluded that they could not see the contradictions in their own behavior stunned me.
>
> Lesson #2: Women NEED relationships, and will only leave one if they have another suitor lined up.
I found this to be true for many women but not all. Women who know that they will not have any problem finding another guy withing a few days or weeks will discard a man instantly, once they become bored or when he doesn´t live up to her expectations. Women who don´t have that much self-esteem or know that they aren´t that attractive might hold on to a man as long as possible, until the next guy shows up.
>
> And then I learned the biggest lesson of all:
> You only find out what a woman is truly like when you're breaking up and she has either no emotional attachment to you, or she has nothing but hate for you.
This was one of the most important lessons I learned about women. You can never trust them, no matter how often they tell you that they love you. Today you are the greatest guy on the planet and the next day you are the biggest scumbag, even worse than Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Ted Bundy combined.
>
> Something tells me my life would've been a lot easier and filled with less drama if the manosphere was as widely available as it is today.
So very true. The internet is a blessing and I am glad for all the young guys out there who have all this information availlable.
ng85 :
>
> This! This was probably the most confusing things about women I had to learn and it took me a mighty long time to finally understand that simple concept.
> That women would flat out lie to you or were so deluded that they could not see the contradictions in their own behavior stunned me.
There's also a double standard when it comes to concepts of responsibility. A man is considered strong if he can say "No" and mean it and have people respect it. Part of GMOW was learning how to stand up for myself and not agree to everything laid before me, which at the time was the path of least resistance in dealing with other people. But it always confused me when a girl seemed into me and would give me her number and never respond, or say she wanted to see me and then make up every excuse under the sun for why she couldn't make it. But one thing I've learned is that 20-something women are at the peak of their sexuality, and therefore at the peak of their power over men. They're not expected to live up to our standards because there are too many manginas and pussybeggars willing to cut a pretty girl some slack (Much like I'm sure a man with wealth and status could get away with lots of things a poor man couldn't). If you're not able to treat a pretty girl like you would a man then you're worsening the problem and adding to this culture of toxic women being allowed to do whatever they want (AKA feminism).
>
> I found this to be true for many women but not all.
> Women who know that they will not have any problem finding another guy withing a few days or weeks will discard a man instantly, once they become bored or when he doesn´t live up to her expectations. Women who don´t have that much self-esteem or know that they aren´t that attractive might hold on to a man as long as possible, until the next guy shows up.
My sister is, for lack of a better term, a loser. Out of myself and all the guys I know, none of us has ever been the one to officially end a relationship. In fact, I'd say easily 90% of relationships are ended by the woman. But my sister has had boyfriend after boyfriend, and it's always the guy who dumps her. And the thing is she invests so much into her relationships that she doesn't have any friends, so once the boyfriend is gone she's left on her own....Until she meets a new guy, many times a good friend of her ex, and the cycle repeats over and over again.
I also have to piggyback onto my point about girls in their 20's being at the peak of their power. I'm not a terrible looking guy and I've learned to not be such a mangina, but I've only really been with 3 girls in my almost 30 years who I could consider to be girlfriends, and I still have trouble meeting women or keeping them interested. Meanwhile my sister is 24 and has had easily 15-20 boyfriends. She's not all that pretty and she's fat and has a nasty attitude and doesn't have a job and dropped out of school, but she's still able to find some simp to date her. I guarantee her luck will run out once 30 hits, but it's just amazing that someone who looks like her (Who I'd never even notice walking down the street) has been able to consistently have relationships for almost 10 years.
Chairborne :
>
> There's also a double standard when it comes to concepts of responsibility...
> If you're not able to treat a pretty girl like you would a man then you're worsening the problem and adding to this culture of toxic women being allowed to do whatever they want (AKA feminism).
I always tried to treat hot women as I would men. In university I was blacklisted for doing so by the dormitory "hot girls clique" because I treated them like normal human beings. It wasn't enough that I was civil, I had to basically kiss their asses just to not be villified. That was a huge eye opener. So even back in my blue pill days, I nonetheless treated less attractive women better than hot ones, just on principle.
Chris :
>
> I always tried to treat hot women as I would men.
> In university I was blacklisted for doing so by the dormitory "hot girls clique" because I treated them like normal human beings.
> It wasn't enough that I was civil, I had to basically kiss their asses just to not be villified. That was a huge eye opener.
> So even back in my blue pill days, I nonetheless treated less attractive women better than hot ones, just on principle.
Possibly because women in general get the wrong impression from how often guys enjoy fighting and even merely arguing, in order to test each other's mettle or hold each other accountable (knowing instinctively that other men can handle that indirect respect), what those chicks didn't realize was that treating women like men was a massive compliment from a man.
The thing is, men have no problem admiring men. If I know someone who can demonstrate self-defense techniques, Jujitsu, engine-repair skills, slam-dunking abilities or wilderness survival tactics, I will watch in admiration, listen keenly, ask questions and, in general, aspire to that level of knowledge and physical ability.
For instance: I'd never join the military, as I'm too stubborn and averse to authority to go through that -- but I have immense admiration for soldiers and veterans, because they had what it took to stick it out, and I did not. A soldier or vet is my better. Simple enough. Whether something directly applies to me or not is utterly besides the point. To a woman, it wouldn't be.
Even when a man does something that I can't or won't do, I know I can learn something from it, aspire to something about it. In essence: I'm impressed. Guys impress each other. They naturally and instinctively try to be increasingly awesome, not usurp those who are more awesome, or pull them down, as women try to do.
As a sane man, I easily see how separate my personal tastes in lifestyle are from the validity of those who differ -- because, again in the case of military men, they're stone-cold bad-asses, and I am not.
If a man hears another's war stories, he'll listen acutely and respond, "That's cool" or "That's amazing." The storyteller might shrug or say something like "Thanks," but it's a formality, as they both know that yes, he's a bad-ass, but that this is because he put in the work to get there. He had what it took, summoned everything, and did what he had to do to become better. It wasn't given to him; he didn't feel entitled to it; there wasn't a magical pill he could take. He earned that bad-ass-ness. He worked for that shit.
...whereas a woman will see a woman and, instead of admiring how much she's undergone to reach a level of amazingness, or aspiring to be smarter and stronger like her, she'll be jealous. She'll think, "What does she have that I don't?"
And the cool thing about men, in terms of the examples above, is that we love to teach each other shit. I used to listen to excellent drummers and watch their skills unfold in real time in my ears. After a number of years, I played so well that other fellas would come up on stage after the gig, check out my kit, compliment my drumming style and ask questions. I'd show them everything I could think of to be helpful. A couple of them went on to buy drum sets and form their own bands.
It's the same thing when I hear and watch amazing guitar players. This cat, he had a level of patience on a guitar neck that I still haven't summoned, and he practiced and practiced and now he's a bad-ass. We both know this, so he'll accept my praise graciously. If I have questions, he'll show me what he's doing on those frets.
It's even relevant in terms of dating: If a guy you know, even barely, is with a woman whom you find incredibly attractive, as soon as she leaves the room, you'll tell him, "Damn -- good job!" Whereas a woman will plot behind her friend's back to steal the guy or, at the very least, consider her a lesser friend because she's got a better man.
For women, envy supersedes admiration. For men, aspiration to be more like our betters supersedes resentment. Any "envy" felt is used to stir ourselves, to feel provoked and egged on, to have other men light fires under our asses to do better. Not to stew and feel some childish bitterness.
(I know I attached a rather long tail onto that kite, but y'know me, once I get going on the keyboard.)
ng85 :
And this is why civilization as we know it was built by men and made in our image - Because we're willing to get off our asses and learn and grow as people and figure out how to improve the world around us. For the past 40 years women have been given every opportunity men have had to improve the world, and with the exception of a small percentage almost no women have answered the call to action. It just leads me to believe that women have been and will always be the leisure class. It's not a societal thing, it's hard-wired into our brains. The only problem is that now women are told they're better than men and they can have it all, so not only are they lazy, they're also entitled and cunty. I'm honestly surprised the amount of things introduced to society by women hasn't decreased by now.
A stunning hot 10 is on the same level as a 60-year-old self-made multimillionaire. It seems odd to think about it, but these are both two people who are at the peak of their value in their respective ways (Women are valued based on looks, men on resources and status). So what's wrong with this picture? Men are biologically wired to respect women more on how they look than what they do, whereas a man has to work his ass off to achieve the same thing. So women aspire to not have to do anything in life, while men aspire to accomplish all they can in life. Yes, all women aspire to be lazy assholes. And this is why men are considered the creators of civilization. No amount of feminism can change human biology.
Chris :
Great points. To re-contextualize an old Chris Rock quote, "These days, a man has to fly to reach the same places that a woman can just walk to."
Vincent :
Warren Farrell.
Primus_Pilus :
>
> And the cool thing about men, in terms of the examples above, is that we love to teach each other shit.
Total agreement on this. I think once you GYOW is that the status games go away. And teaching each other new skills is how you get cool points. God know I LOVE passing my shooting skills along and I have picked up some neat little close combat and knife tricks from a couple of friends. Currently mentoring another friend on how to do my job (my current skillset is apparently WHITE HOT in demand for InfoSec)
My point is that good men will build each other UP.
It's the manginas that cut each other down for status points with females.
ng85 :
>
> Total agreement on this. I think once you GYOW is that the status games go away.
> And teaching each other new skills is how you get cool points. God know I LOVE passing my shooting skills along and I have picked up some neat little close combat and knife tricks from a couple of friends.
> Point is that good men will build each other up.
> Its the manginas that cut each other down for status points with females.
When I was a nerd in high school I used to hate a lot of people, both male and female, because I was basically invisible. But I've found that as I've gotten older and chilled out a bit I can relate to guys on a more basic level and usually get along with any of them (Unless they prove to be really hostile or absolute manginas). I went out to a bar this weekend with a friend of mine, and when I was there I saw this really good-looking guy start hooking up with this really good-looking girl. My friend and I were outside when this good-looking couple emerged to have a smoke. The chick really wanted to leave to go home and fuck, but the guy heard my friend and I talking about the Walking Dead and he just joins in on our conversation. I could tell this chick was furious, but this guy who looked like an Armani model was just hanging out and shooting the shit with us. I guarantee his lifestyle is a lot different than mine, but somehow we were able to connect and our personalities matched enough that we could carry on a good 10-minute long conversation.
I think all men have a natural camaraderie that we can relate to on a base level because of our gender. We're able to empathize and relate to one another, as well as teach skills to others or have a willingness to learn, so we can always find something to interest us about another man. But women just think about me me me, and if anyone shows them up or is "better" than them, as someone mentioned, they get jealous or get their egos hurt and they end up hating her. This is why so many ugly feminists are trying to "teach" men that standards of beauty are bullshit, all because they were dealt a bad genetic hand that will ensure they won't reach a high level of status. Anything that reminds them that they're not perfect is like Kryptonite to them. But where men succeed is that we realize we're NOT perfect. In my experience I've found that accepting my imperfections makes me strive to improve. And if I can't improve on them then I've learned to just own the imperfections and accept them as a part of who I am.
Eiji :
I figure I had that notion ever since I made the mistake of going thru that thing called "puberty".....
I just didnt have a word for it....
MGTOWFOREVER :
A lifetime of dealing with females on different levels. Women are such a pain in the ass.
Natural Born MGTOW :
My turning point was in 1984. I had the luck or the misfortune to read Ester Vilar "Der dressierte Mann" In English" The manipulated man" at a very early age. It was a real eye opener but the best thing was me observing female behaviour after having read the book. Geez' the most troubling to me, was most probably, that I observed the things she wrote in her book in real life.
Most probably the saying "either you can understand women or you can love women" bears some kind of truth. After having read the book I never saw women in the same light I saw them before. Observing my friends helped me a lot to figure things out back in my youth. I saw with my own eyes family, friends I just understood on a subconscious level that marriage wasn't for me.
I don't hate women I'm just not compatible with them . . . I transmit on a whole different frequency. That's all there is to.
Cheers
frog :
After many loss's and few wins, a guy has to sooner or later admit that it's not going to happen. Wish I'd learned quicker, but I still did ok, considering I didn't lose near as much as a lot a guys.
Insidious_Sid :
Another thing was the 15 years I spent outside of the mating arena while with the ex during "courtship", engagement and marriage. It seemed like such a different world - only 15 years later - and if you were not connected via smartphone you were a social outcast. It also seemed like meeting in person actually had less relevance than people on a woman's contact list. I mean, she can't control a real-life person, but with social media and text she can call up any human avatar she wants/needs in a particular moment. I found getting into women's social hive to be complex, and quite tiresome. Games like "keep them interesting but not too interested" or "Hey I'll text Sid because my other plans fell through." Some would even have a dry-spell and go through their contact lists - one actually said "I'm just going through my contact list here...". And then I deleted her.
But yes, the way the mating arena works now is just insane, and if you're not tethered to your phone you probably won't do nearly as well as someone who is. I recall family upset I didn't response to their facebook requests to visit when they went through town. I told them I go on Facebook twice a month to put a picture or two of what the kids are up to. They undoubtedly have Facebook Messenger and respond to every "ding and dong" the thing makes. I tried Messenger for two days and had to uninstall it. Seems a lot of people fuck around sending cute cat pictures all day while at work. Maddening.
Azure Nomad :
My turning point for sure was when I decided I want to focus on myself and not what was perceived as normal for my age. I gave up on the idea looking for love that is found in romcoms and learned to love myself far more instead.
African-Daoist :
I cant specifically refer to one event per se that was a point of no return but it was the little mind games and irrational responses that got me over time. One event I do think played a part in my reassessment of female's, was when I was attacked by a friends mistress(he was married) because as she said I called her a prostitute and asked him why he was cheating on his wife. Of course I had done none of such,but later on I realised that because I did not pay attention to her she took offence and became insecure and assumed I disapproved of the relationship, I myself found it hard to believe someone could be that insecure but there she was staring me in the face.
Needless to say despite it being evident that I had made no such comment everyone at our table seemed to be in support of her despite it being evident to everyone that I had not made such a comment. It made me reevaluate the people I spend my time with and also how easy it is for a female to create an unpleasant outcome for a male. If not for self restraint and ignoring my bruised ego I would probably have been in jail for murder or been killed myself because all the white knights thought to show their loyalty to her but I ignored their taunting and her assault and simply walked away.
The situation was later resolved but from that point on I realised the risks of interacting with females.
stanmsl :
I knew something wasn't right for years but couldn't put my finger on it. Fell victim to the friend zone / white knight mentality often. Thankfully didn't go through the marriage / divorce / kids access horror stories I have read at length on here.
Two incidents happened within 3 months of each other early in 2016.
1) I found out a close platonic female friend who I'd known for 12 years was faking a chronic illness in a shocking way, I'd looked after her for years.
2) A woman who I'd been involved with behind her partners back for 4 years who had promised me for ages that we'd be together when she left him, suddenly did a complete 180 when newly single. She did this the week my dad was in hospital having a major life saving operation.
MGTOWFOREVER :
Women fake illness often for attention. Lots of women do that "I can't breathe" bullshit when they are not being catered too. NEVER EVER get with involved with a woman that is seeing someone else. Your life(literally) is way more valuable. Chad might find out and then try to kill you. It has happened many times and there was even a local incident with something like that happening. That bullshit of "I will leave him so we will be together" is exactly that....BULLSHIT. If she was going to get rid of him then she would have already done it without even telling you. She was stringing you along and enjoyed using you.
I hope your dad is doing well.
stanmsl :
> Women fake illness often for attention. Lots of women do that "I can't breathe" bullshit when they are not being catered too.
Funny you should say that......the illness she claimed to suffer from was an allergy to scents such as aftershaves and deodorants. She couldn't be in crowded places and we always had to make allowances for her..................... until I caught her in a packed out bar on the busiest night of the year.
> NEVER EVER get with involved with a woman that is seeing someone else.
She was actually living with him, he was 10 years older than her, I was the CHAD at the time, something obviously went wrong.
Got the standard LJBF rejection, accepted it then blocked her a month later and shut off all contact. Funny thing is that she has always avoided me ever since, we only live half a mile apart but I have only seen her once in 2 years and that was from a distance. I obviously did something right......
MGTOWFOREVER :
I said it once and I'll say it again when a woman goes out for a "Girls night out" its to get attention from men. Not to relax and have fun.
You should have never got involved with her at all. She was playing you from the start. I have a girl that ignores me when she sees me and wouldn't even look my way if I was having a heart attack. Funny thing is I played her at her own game and she didnt like it. She makes out she was the victim but yet her very first words to me were nothing but lies and she expected to control me.
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