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What Was Your Turning Point? - First Half
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1 year 11 months ago #109
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What Was Your Turning Point? - First Half was created by multipleauthors
Matt Foley
:
I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie? What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
Grenade001 :
When I had to read up on PUA to try and understand women
phonebook :
Dating a Christian woman with the mistaken assumption that I would find a NAWALT in the Christian crowd. Boy was I wrong.
jso :
there was no sudden moment of realization. I questioned authority around the time I finished surviving my teenage years. I've never had any real life male role models or father figures of any kind. opposing female tyranny was just another piece of the puzzle, but it's a piece that came into focus when I started reading manosphere blogs.
mr.anonymous :
My story seems to be mentioned by other's experiences here.
I knew for a very long time something was very, very wrong.
While I approached life with an innocence and naiveté when I was young , I quickly sensed that it was a trait that would lead to severe consequences. Women didn't just dislike it, it invoked a primal rage within them I couldn't understand. The only thing similar I can equate it with it is how a rabid dog smells fear or weakness on a potential human victim. If it smells fear it goes straight into an enraged vicious state.
Well, if you approach a woman with altruistic ambitions, deep within her brain is this very same reaction.
I've experienced the ones from the churches. They were the most damaged and self centered. The most intolerant are the ones that consider themselves "Liberals or Progressives". Of course there were the ones that went through abuse. Then the spoiled ones that got their way because their fathers didn't have the slightest idea what to do with their insanity.... I've found some dewsies....
I guess it was actually watching my own female relatives, being the fly on the wall. Understanding that there was no trust whatsoever. If a man told them something in confidence, rest assured it could practically be on a billboard within minutes.
The Running Man :
>
Originally Posted by Grenade001
> When I had to read up on PUA to try and understand women
Same here. I was virtually 'gameless' throughout my twenties. Any success I had was more a result of my pretty face and reserved, shy behaviour which women mistook for arrogance and indifference (which is what they are ACTUALLY attracted to). When I started learning from (the good) PUAs and understanding female behaviour, I somehow liked them less and less. I still wanted to have sex and date them, but somehow my belief in romantic love and building a family disappeared along the way as I learned more and more about a woman's primitive nature and its ugly side. Modern young women were doing very little to hide it or control it so they made it very easy for me to disengage from the dating scene and walk away from the idea of marriage.
Grenade001 :
I'm still in my twenties and I can say that I am "gameless" to an extent. Most of what the PUA's talk about (not supplicating and generally keeping your dignity) I did naturally without a second thought. I think my "lack of game" would be a result of my highly logical thought processes and training to be an economist, one tries to create a formula that explains how and why a particular outcome occurs. When I tried to figure out an effective way to bed girls, it was an exhausting period in my life, luckily one that didn't involve too much pain. I genuinely believe that most people get laid by accident, I have seen couples where the two were completely mismatched looks wise, in a few cases the girl could have easily gotten much better (overseas of course), in most cases the guy should have had his man card revoked for being seen with a ham beast in public.
But the funny thing is that with certain types of girls in certain places, I don't need to "game" or do anything, just almost turn up and be myself. This happens overseas and with Chinese girls almost exclusively back home, lately since I've been growing my moustache I have been getting a lot more looks but nothing too substantial yet.
At home, I might as well be Mr. Invisible to the girls around here. Don't think I am too upset about this, basically equals to a zero stress life which allows me to enjoy life's pleasures as well as have the ability to put some solid hours of work into my job/uni/etc.
TL;DR. Going overseas and seeing feminine women, being brought up the hypergamy scale, is a turning point.
Ithit :
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
There has been no such event. I know enough women that are fine human beings who got together with good men and treat them well to feel that "everything" is a lie. It may be the case that AWALT, and in my experience an uncomfortable majority most certainly are (which is why I go my own way). But all women? That's not my experience thus far. However, I most certainly recognize that society as a whole encourages AWALT, and I'm extremely cautious because of it.
I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
livas :
>
Originally Posted by mr.anonymous
> I knew for a very long time something was very, very wrong.
Exactly
>
Originally Posted by mr.anonymous
> if you approach a woman with altruistic ambitions, deep within her brain is this very same reaction
Interesting point
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> I know enough women that are fine human beings who got together with good men and treat them well...It may be the case that AWALT...
You missed the point!
It is not important whether awalt or not...
What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
I call it "The license to bitch & nag" which in the long run is far more deadlier than the one to kill
phonebook :
Man, the church women! The born-again ones are not very subtle, and neither are the "liberals/progressives". Those ones are relatively easy to avoid. But the ones who have practiced for a long time have put on the NAWALT mask on from day one. Either that, or it may be because their traditional upbringing may have kept their hypergamous instincts in check somewhat. But in either case, it's just a matter of extent of how AWALT they are. In the eyes of society, I'm seen as a potential beta provider, seeing as, I've had a trad religious upbringing as well, and did more or less what was expected of me. I'd imagine that the traditional women do look out for potential providers a little earlier than most other types of women. It is then easy for them to say "hey look I've been loyal to this guy from day one" in order to insinuate that she is supposedly a woman of moral quality. And they are always nice and sweet at first. I think on the old board, somebody once termed them "scouts".
In the events leading to our break-up, it was crazy how much it looked like my God-fearing ex hated me. She'd just look at me as though she thought I was the most pathetic person that ought to be wiped off the face of the planet. I detected something was very wrong, but I just kept doing the wrong thing and bought things for her, because I still had that idea in my head that she wasn't like that at all, that there really should not be any way she would hate me for all the things I've done for her. That there was no way she would give in to her more primitive and vicious side. She'd never say "I hate you", she'd just take her present without so much of a thank-you and run out the door, literally, giving some half-assed excuse about some urgent "church activity". Meanwhile I was sat there in the restaurant watching her run out, like a chump. Years later, she's pregnant with some thug. Pretty big turning point, huh?
I'm not really interested in women anymore. I don't see a point. As stardusk once termed it, I have "intellectually induced asexuality". This is how I look back at my innocence and naivete:
BeijaFlor :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> It is not important whether awalt or not...
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society puts them on a "privileged pedestal."
Exactly so.
Let me put it a little more dramatically:
How many empty cylinders in the revolver would be enough to get you to agree to play Russian roulette?
(As far as I'm concerned, you could empty them ALL and I'm still going to say no.)
Every woman in the Western world, no matter how "civilized," no matter how sincere, no matter who she is or how she acts, has the guns of Government at her beck and call. Any of 'em CAN re-cast Saturday night's drunken spree, by way of Sunday's hung-over remorse, into Monday's rape charge. Any of 'em CAN "Oops" you into being her baby-daddy, and you are on the hook unless you can prove you weren't the daddy - and a DNA test requires her cooperation, at least to the extent of allowing YOUR doctor (matter of trust here) to take the cheek-swab sample. Any of 'em CAN get Hubby kicked out of house and home, by calling the "City's Finest" and saying, "I'm afraid of him." Any of 'em CAN hack off your willy in a fit of drunken rage, and the world will laugh at you on The Talk.
Not saying they will. Just saying they have the power, and the means, and the tacit approval of Society, if they do.
Matt Foley :
For me, it was after my ex-wife and I separated and I did a little online dating. Of the 5 women I went out with, every one of them claimed that their exes were abusive and/or drug addicts. By the end of the dates, it was clear that there was no mutual interest. I discovered MGTOW not too long after that.
I've considered learning some game and using it to get my needs met, but honestly, escorts seem to be way less of a hassle.
livas :
Ithit :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> You missed the point!
Then the point wasn't clear. I answered the question that was asked as I see it. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the point was?
>
Originally Posted by livas
> It is not important whether awalt or not...
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Octavian :
>
Originally Posted by Matt Foley
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
I met a latin girl, sharp as a tack. Had the whole package, and I figured with my experience in PUA in one of America's largest cities, I could handle her indefinitely with my superior intellect and skill.
Six months later, I was in a fight for my life. Understand that I've had to draw my gun in self defense before, and that horrible experience is nothing compared to the day to day psychological warfare a man must fight when he's with a woman. Every day had me questioning my sanity. Every hour with her was a power struggle. I felt like I was fighting an enemy I couldn't see, couldnt hit, and couldn't dodge. The scene with Morpheus where Agent Smith kicks his ass is a video summation of my last relationshackle. No matter how much I cared, how much I tried to see past the lies and the emotional bullshit, there she was-with an emotional fist waiting for my face. There was no rest, no recovery. Just constant war, and addictive sex.
After extricating myself from that disaster, I realized two things. One, my intel was WRONG. I was missing a very important piece of the puzzle, somewhere, and sought to find it. I then scoured academic and print literature for info on women, and discovered the second thing; after reading Esther Villar, "Sperm Wars", and other publications on the subject, I realized most women aren't even sentient . They're biological versions of a shell company laundering drug money. Lots of lights, shiny marble ,and polished glass-but its all bullshit hiding more bullshit. There's so much bullshit in a woman's life you'd need a team of Feds and a million dollar labor budget just to document one woman's lies, to herself and others.
That's when I realized where the exit signs were, and made an immediate use of them.
Ancient Sunlight :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Allow me to attempt to phrase it differently once more. You have your lovely NAWALT; a woman who appears to be a good human being, who fits you, who you enjoy being with. Now where are you going to go? Marriage is the almost inevitable answer. Meanwhile, every possible falsehood, delusion and confusion is fed to your NAWALT by the films she watches, the books she reads, the shows she watches, the news stories she reads, her friends and family, naive young men.. By nearly everyone, in fact. Perhaps she changes, as nearly all women do when they get married. Perhaps it'll end one day. And you are married - meaning you lose everything.
When you marry a woman you are almost literally betting your life; and the odds are not with you. It is holding a grenade and hoping it doesn't explode when you pull the pin; it is playing Russian roulette; it is a lottery with few prices.
BeijaFlor :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
I won't take offense at it, but I will point this out:
If you look at the actual crime statistics, you find that rape is rare (under 85,000 reported in the USA in 2012, according to FBI).
If you look at the actual divorce records, you find that divorce is depressingly common (about 2 million a year in the USA).
I don't say "AWALT" to shame women as a class. I say it to warn men, as individuals.
NOTE TO ALL: There's a reading list in the "MGTOW 101" sub-forum in The Lounge. Those of us who choose to expound the NAWALT dogma ... well, you might want to read some of those books.
juicemoney :
Here is my long-winded response to the OP's question:
After my last relationship I took stock of what everybody else suggested/commented/inserted their own bullshit opinion. The popular culture that pervades our society is full of subtle messages and opinions that can alter your decision making and values. None of this helped my personal situation or made me feel any better. I travelled quite a bit and started to read more. Finally, I stepped back and saw the same slow motion catastrophe I experienced occurring with a lot of other people. I had always been a skeptic but I finally accepted a simple truth: The vast majority of what you are told is not for your own benefit.
After a few late nights scouring the internet I "woke up" from this sociocultural haze of nonsense. It is especially difficult to take a macro view of the surroundings when I mingle with people my own age. The average mid 20s person today is a fucking idiot with little perspective outside of their own narcissistic existence. This can be applied to most people and that's when I realized that the majority of people don't have an informed opinion about anything but are more than happy to force their ignorant views down your throat.
I find this information is a lot more simple to understand and easier to digest when you apply simple economics as a context or framework. Dating, careers, education, finance and misandry make a lot more sense to me in terms of supply and demand. It is a cold way to view things but I have always been a logical and somewhat impersonal type with a dash of cynicism. The end of my last relationship awakened me not just from institutionalized misandry but from a lot of other BS I accepted from people and society. This point of view doesn't just apply to women; society has a vast array of institutions and resources in place to keep individuals as beta sheep and prevent them from reaching their own potential. It made me take stock of where I am versus where I want to be. As a whole our governments and money are corrupt, our values and morals have eroded and mediocrity has become mainstream. The Western Empire is on the decline, flawed views in the average woman is only one small indicator. Since the dawn of civilization man has sought to fulfill his greed and centralize power, why should things be so different now?
While I may sound condescending, I try to reserve judgement and not be a full on elitist. There is a lot of good to be found in some people once you can dig past all the bullshit. The problem is that society has made the bullshit matter. While difficult, I think that there can be a balance between full-bore elitism and being part of the sheeple.
History has shown that a contrarian point of view is often a key component of success; it seems that is the case especially when women or money are involved. Now I am finding it easier to figure out my own mission and vision in life; the last difficult leap is going from theory to practice.
GabrielKnight :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
I think that maybe you still don´t fully understand the effect our society has on most women. First of all, there is a sense of entitlement that the majority of women share. And while not all women share that sense of entitlement to the same extend, they all have that feeling that they "deserve" certain things, just because they are women. These can be very small things like for example a woman asking you to fix her laptop or carry something from the basement into her apartement and the border is very often blurred. But almost every woman, even the most mild-mannered and understanding and "man-loving" female will have that special something that she feels entitled to, just because she is a woman and you are the man. This can be a very different thing depending on the woman. Sharpen your senses and observe women very closely and you will find those little things in almost every woman.
Now, you could say "But maybe not EVERY woman has this sense of entitlement, no matter how minor it might be! Oh and you are just paranoid!" And maybe you are right about that. But think about this: Our ancestors lived in the wilderness where every movement of the grass and the leaves could mean that there is a predator stalking you. Now you have two options: Run away or ignore the movement because you can´t know for sure that there really is a predator. In the first case, if you run away and there is a predator, you have just saved your life. If there is no predator, you have just wasted some precious calories but you can balance that out later. At least you are alive to eat food. If you stay and there is no predator, that would be ideal because you didn´t waste energy. But if you stay and there is a predator, you are dead. When you think about the odds and the risk involved in this situation, your safest option is to ALWAYS run away, if there is movement in the grass. You might save your life or if there is no real threat, you just wasted some calories. No big deal compared to the risk involved.
When we are talking about the dangers that women in this society can pose to men, we are talking about real threats: Divorce, loss of lots of money, financial bankrupcy, mental breakdown (maybe even suicide), false rape accusations, slandering etc.. Or maybe it´s just messing with your head which might lead to depression or a lower quality of life.
If you take all those risks into account you have to ask yourself: What can I lose and is it worth it? The question is not so much if there really IS a tiger hiding in the bushes. The question is: What happens if there is a tiger.
Or to put it in the words of the famous philosopher Clint Eastwood:
jso :
I will also add this:
I more recently came to the realization that all substantial interactions with females I have ever had in my life were negative. most especially my mom, who I can now say with certainty was just a horribly shitty parent. so no one can tell me that I just need to keep my eye out for the fabled mythical NAWALT to save my life. I know better now. my education was the most costly kind, full decades of painful psychological and physical torture (starvation, specifically).
fantasma :
Hold on a second here... You mean to tell me that everything I was told about women was a lie?
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait... No...
Next thing you'll tell me that Santa isn't real, the Easter Bunny, or... The tooth fairy...
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait... No...
Oh damn... Maybe the whole system has been lying to me my whole life...
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait...
Meh... whatever.. I'll just do what I want to do. Fuck it.
TheRecipe :
Seeing the same characteristics displayed over and over again (selfishness, mind games, psychological bullying, pathological liars etc), not only to me by other guys too. Now I realised that women are downright dangerous and should be handled with extreme caution:
They're not too smart though so once you figure it all out you can hack your way around their little game, smash the poon and ditch.
Joe :
You would probably guess that after 2 marriages and 2 divorces I would have clued in. Nope.
I think I was lucky. I decided to live on my own for a while to figure things out.
This gave me a lot of free time so I decided to keep an open mind and read whatever sparked an interest. This was new for me because I belonged to a religious group that highly censors information. They actually scare people into believing demons will possess you if you read "unholy" material.
I read some books on psychology and philosophy. I stumbled onto some PUA websites and read some of their stuff. That led me into reading about MRAs, feminism and most recently MGTOW.
So, after all of this, I started observing female behaviour. I gradually became aware of the games women and society play with men's lives. That's when I decided I want no part of it.
WheelBarrow :
I'm not sure there was a specific turning point for me. I've always been a bit outside of the social arena and stepping in to find a mate seemed, well, foreign, and not just a little bit frightening. Still I soldiered on but was always rather reserved and understood early on that unwed mothers were a no mans land of disaster waiting to happen. Of course, being reserved gets one practically nowhere with women which I regarded as a curse but now view as a blessing in many respects.
The last straw was observing first hand how a woman could take my heart and stomp it on the ground by telling me things that drew me in to finding I was falling in love with her and then doing a complete 180 and becoming as cold as ice (thanks, Foreigner). I tried to rebound via online dating and we know what sort of a cesspool that is. Last year I found the old MTGOW Forums on an unrelated search and was simultaneously appalled, impressed, and enlightened by the subject matter. So many pieces fell into place and so much of my life experience became clear. It also became clear that my life experience was far from unique and I shared a common bond with many men.
In many ways I have been GMOW all along and in others I have only checked out of the system within the past year. My goal now is to help spread the word and shine the light of truth to those still lost at sea.
mountainman :
There have been a few times in my life when I've had revelations, when I'd been trying to understand something intractable and then It Just Fell Into Place. One of those was about women. Revelation: "It's not me, it's them." Despite the contrary evidence (e.g. The only common factor in all my relationships was me.) the truth is that "It's not me, it's them."
GabrielKnight :
> " Originally Posted by mountainman
> Revelation: "It's not me, it's them."
I guess, most MGTOW men had this revelation at a certain point. I certainly had it after I stumbled across a forum where men talked about their abusive relationships. I then discovered a blog of a guy in Toronto who talked about his horrible dating experiences and the comments on that site confirmed his experiences. Then I discovered some MGTOW channels on Youtube and the rest is history
Thomas Covenant :
I have had a few experiences that, when I look back, come together to complete the picture;
-Neglectful mother, abusive grandmother, leeching step-mother, whore sister. (Can anyone see the pattern emerging?)
However, the turning point (at which I could slap on the MGTOW colours, if you like) was last year when I was trying to figure out why women were getting more interested in me. I hadn't changed in any way so it was making me feel pretty suspicious.
I stumbled my way onto a "don't date single moms" article by way of Dick Masterson's website (at the same time that a single mum was flirting with me at work - I say flirt, it was more like a bloody job interview) and I would probably have been convinced by one or two well-argued points.
What I got was dozens.
corvair61 :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
I read every post before yours and did not see one man say they hated women.
They said AWALT, which may be what they have lived.
If some man comes on here that has been burned and becomes a misogynist as you fear, who cares?
This is a place for men to talk, rant and yes maybe hate a little if they need to get it out of their systems. They've been fucking burned.
The red pill is a jagged fucking pill and it goes down differently in each man.
I like reading the angry posts. It reminds me daily of what I went through. My anger has waned (a bit), but I need the constant reminders.
livas :
>
Originally Posted by corvair61
> My anger has waned (a bit), but I need the constant reminders.
"There's a new sheriff in town. He is tired of seeing his boys getting their
hearts shot up."
Try to turn this energy of anger into productive things like becoming "the sheriff" with time
smallbitsoffire :
My whole life has been the turning point. Ship turns slowly and if we take into account the heavy waves of society, ship may not be able turn in the strongest winds of strom at all and sometimes it may feel that ship is going to sink.
I have always been a negative force. The one who has objected any unjustice and had strong opinions. Of course lot of times it has turned against me and I have got lot of bullying when I was young and being strong character was still a bad thing back then. Now.. it's something opposite. I see more and more respect when I open my mouth. Lot of times I say things other people would like say, but just doesn't have the courage.
But let's say that ship begin to turn due events of my childhood, when girls were pampered my teachers and authorities, how I got discaplined by one mother when like 5 to 6 girls where making fun of me in little play ground and I went to try to get one of them down from the frame they were sitting on and singing because I felt helpless. This mother who was not mother of any of these girls said me "you never ever hit a girl" and made no effort what so ever to say anything to girls. I had two choises, either try stay there humiliated and play while listening the taunt song or go home.
Multiple cases during my life showed that women are favored in many occation. And that boys are always the culprits. Girls learned very quicly after puberty kicked in that they can use their new weapon to make guys do things for them. And I have never liked it. I've been rebellious from the start. But during long and lonely life you will hit the low points eventually. I don't believe that my most recent experiences were the deciding factor, but the ship got finally wind to its sails.
livas :
>
Originally Posted by smallbitsoffire
> I have always been a negative force. The one who has objected any unjustice and had strong opinions.
I congratulate you! But why would it be negative to object to unjustice and to have a strong opinion.
corvair61 :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> "There's a new sheriff in town. He is tired of seeing his boys getting their hearts shot up."
> Try to turn this energy of anger into productive things like becoming "the sheriff" with time!
I am really not sure what you are trying to say.
Is it that we no longer allow the men to come here and rant about what they have been through?
He is tired of seeing his boys getting their hearts shot up.
They arrive here shot up. Then we allow them to shout and curse until they no longer need to.
By the way, who is this new sheriff?
livas :
>
Originally Posted by corvair61
> I am really not sure what you are trying to say
What I am saying is that if all men, who have been shot down or treated unjust by women, with time, could funnel their anger and use it to become protectors of their brothers by helping and educating them about women and reality, we all (as men) would benefit from that.
corvair61 :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> What I am saying is that if all men, who have been shot down or treated unjust by women, with time, could funnel their anger and use it to become protectors of their brothers by helping and educating them about women and reality, we all (as men) would benefit from that.
There is only so much any pussy rabid man will listen to.
What we are doing here is not going to change the world.
We might save a few from the perils of marriage.
I think our bigger job is to let the men come here and let it out without getting shamed by women or men.
Rouleur :
>
Originally Posted by Matt Foley
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie? What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
That isn't true. I know plenty of women who either want or have already ensnared a decent, respectable man. I could have gotten married ten years ago, the summer after high school, because a pretty girl in my class wanted to start a family with a decent, respectable man. She married another man a few years later and has the family she wanted.
Maybe you've been rejected in the past; that's not important. You're not basing your worth as a man on how much you're wanted by breeders, are you? Of course not. It's actually a good thing, because you were spared from middle class hell, or child support, or herpes, etc....
You may find a woman who acts NAWALT, but society is like an ominous black hole, always pulling her in a direction toward its Event Horizon - The Event in which she has a turning point of her own, and figures out the cost/benefit of making use of the power society gives over her husband, or her ability to act as she pleases at least without consequence, and often with profit.
AWALT. Maybe not always in the fashion its described in an individual thread on the manosphere, but all of them are machines with a prime directive of replication. That's breeding - not loving you, or being your friend, companion, soul mate, or whatever other words the deceivers use to entice a man into slavery.
Stark :
>
Originally Posted by Rouleur
> AWALT. Maybe not always in the fashion its described in an individual thread on the manosphere, but all of them are machines with a prime directive of replication. That's breeding - not loving you, or being your friend, companion, soul mate, or whatever other words the deceivers use to entice a man into slavery.
While it's interesting from a younger prospective of a women's desire to replicate/breed/whatever. As women get older the true nature is evident and that is they are concerned about their own well being - not the man's (unless it effects their well being). Women are true sycophants.
For me... after a shitty marriage and equally crappy relation$shits afterwards it becomes apparent that women are entitled in today's society and man are mere fodder for the well-being of women. This was a clear turning point for me. Women's expectation of what they want is unrealistic and actually quite amusing to me now. As the SMV decreases the veil begins to drop and one can see the illusion and the bad deal men are dealt in today's society!
TheDisgruntledGentleman :
Divorce court...
Greymaster :
Simple observations in my life. Typical stuff, like seeing family and friends getting utterly screwed over. Seeing women in groups also lead me to this, since they seem so bitchy, for lack of a better term. No first hand experience mind you, but when you see a snake, best to assume it's venemous.
HamstaBlasta :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Probably more like the 'thought' process behind 'Rape Culture'* no? It's worth your checking out 'The [female] Gun in the Room' concept, which is what lots of the posters here are pretty much alluding to: it's an institutional, systemic thing. I'm defo including that one in the MGTOW glossary I'm working on.
My answer to the actual question asked in this thread, is when I found myself being shot with that 'gun', from 'WTF?!!' nowhere, just because the woman carrying it fancied a bit of Eastenders-style melodrama, near as I can tell. That's why I've ghosted since, and most likely will always continue to do so. It was also that event that made me realise that most blokes are WKs and manginas, regardless of how much you thought you were mates and friends beforehand. I choose to only interact with 'redpill' Men now.
One thing always worth bearing in mind when '[false] Equivalence' arguments, like yours hinted at**, are invoked is that objectivity really does trump subjectivity, and it may be that one side is actually, objectively, provably correct; the other equally incorrect - however similar the forms of the arguments.
It is trivial to prove that 'The [female] Gun in the Room' is often the case, by seeing women constantly get what they want, cash, prizes, sole custody of the kids, and revenge by using 'the Gun in the Room' that the State and Culture gives to them at birth. It is equally trivial to prove that '[male on female] Rape Culture' simply doesn't exist, by pointing to the social stigma and legal punishment visited upon accused [male on female] sexual harassers -> rapists; where even someone as uber-Elite as Strauss-Kahn could be taken down by the lowliest maid's mere accusation of sexual impropriety.
I always consider this a pretty golden real-world example that: disproves the existence of 'Rape Culture' and the Paaaaytriarchy; proves the existence of 'The [female] Gun in the Room', and therefore female Privilege; and shows that being all 'I'm Alpha bro!' won't save you.
*Yup, I know that 'Rape Culture' is mostly a more 'acceptable' sounding repackaging of 'all men are rapists', but there are differences between those two concepts.
**I've been busily attempting to do other higher-priority bits and bobs, regarding our good work, so haven't had much time to read nor post; but I've appreciated some of your anti-echo-chamber posts I've read. Always good to be kept honest and on our toes. Cheers.
mr.jr :
Married 2.5 times (I'll get to that 0.5 later), got screwed terribly by the first one, made out fabulous on the second one (that will be book worthy material) and the 2.5 one? Well, that's when my eyes were opened.
Lived with her for 10 years, separate houses but she spent summers, weekends and few weeknights at my place. We split up when one of her bratty kids caused all sorts of shit problems in my life and I wasn't allowed to discipline the little princess. We kept on seeing each other over the years while I started dating and meeting women, but I always got pulled back into her. All this changed my game, I found I was full-on Beta with her. After 5 years we decided to marry and between finally being with her, and my advancing age (and lower and lower testosterone) became a beta bitch slave. This once wild filly who I managed effortlessly years earlier became my overlord and I had lost my backbone (let alone my boner). Three months into the marriage, I caught her fucking her old boyfriend and threw her out. Now, filled with self pity and confused at the illogic of it all, I began to look at why this girl who I had know for 15 years could treat a really nice guy like me so badly.
I started dating again and put up the deflector shields against close engagement by not bedding every chick in sight. And something strange (to me at the time) happened. I found that the more I put off sexual engagement, the more they wanted to bed me. It became a game of sorts, seeing just how desperate the woman would be over a period of dates when I wouldn't screw her. Me, being the sort who needs to find logic and reason in every situation did what any techie would do, I googled it. Wow! PUA, SMV, Hamstering, Red Pill, MGTOW - I was never so driven to learn a new language. Sorting thru this body of fact, thoughts, views and examples on women and relationships took some time, but just like Rome, all roads led to one infallible conclusion so succinctly summed up by Bill Burr. “Women are constantly patting themselves on the back for how difficult their lives are and no one corrects them because they want to fuck ‘em.” MGTOWs don’t have this problem and often can be effective on calling women on their BS rather than justify female behavior for any number of reasons. (from jagrmeister's post, "5 Misconceptions about MGTOW").
I replayed all my past exploits, marriages, dates, and relationships. I examined my buddies and their marriages, I spent hours watching couples at high end resorts (I live part time at one) and in each and every case, I saw the same basic plot line develop. The entitled bitch calling the shots because the guy wants to dip his wick for a few minutes inside her body.
I have a decided advantage over the younger members here since I have been getting increasing doses of the wonder drug, "low T". That drug gives you incredible insight into reality by moving your brain from your dick back to your head. MGTOW and the framework behind it gave me my life back and the only downside is the soreness I have in my face from my constant grin.
Oh... I see I didn't address the 2.5 part. I made sure the paperwork regarding the legal filing of the marriage never got filed but didn't let her know (got married in foreign country). When I booted her out, I told her I would not pay one cent towards the 'divorce'. She paid her lawyer for it all and I paid 42 cents for a stamp to mail back the signed separation agreement page.
ak47 :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> Then the point wasn't clear. I answered the question that was asked as I see it. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the point was?
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Its not equivalent.
The point you are missing is the lack of consequences. Sure all men could rape, since they are physically stronger than women. They don't (in civilized countries) because it comes with a 10-20 year prison term, loss of livelihood, and social ostracism.
There are no consequences for being an AWALT. These days if you fleece your husband and make sure he's left peniless in his 50s you are CELEBRATED. "Fuck that loser" good for you, you go guuurl.
All women, even your special little princess that you think you will find, are cognizant of the fact that they could fleece you in divorce court, or cry wolf and have you arrested, beat up, and perhaps killed. Without any consequences what so ever. If you get divorced, most of your "friends" are going to be on your wife's side. You will be old, alone, and starting life over in your 50s.
Its ironic that society rewards women who cry wolf and yet tell young boys that the moral of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is to not lie, because it comes with punishments and consequences....Whores (literally...a professional whore) can falsely accuse men of rape, and the man's life is ruined. Never mind the fact that the accusation comes from a fucking prostitute. The fact that fucking prostitutes have more credibility than an average man should tell you all you need to know about this society. (Reference to the Duke Lacrosse incident)
AWALT is in no way equivalent to "All men are rapists, teach men not to rape". AWALT merely recognizes that women, all of em, have a stronger hand to play in the court of law. All women have problems dealing with emotions. All women will act like bitchy cunts to their husbands. Everybody lives and works with women (to various extents), its not like members of this forum are telling you to seal yourself in a fucking bubble. But you've been warned of women and relationshits.
The point of AWALT is vigilance. Debating AWALT or NAWALT is a waste of time. NAWALT? Cool, you won the lottery, congratulations. Assume AWALT as the default position, its not like you lose anything by it. Its like putting your guard up when you think you're about to get into a fight. You don't want to fight, but its foolish to stand there with your arms down.
Witam Was :
I knew for a very long time something was weird going on as a child and my interactions with my mother.
That feeling grew as I was put in under woman’s care in the hospital and it made me think it was good to have these women pay attention to me with medical instruments. I still had hope but when I came back to the world of the so called living but I was rejected. The felling of something wrong with world grew like a sliver in the back of my mind and I was so busy working on myself to make it through the day that I did not even care about women or anything else. That sliver in the back of my mind grew tenfold and never really thought about female interactions.
I never played the game or put that much energy into any of the females that paid attention to me but the final nail or dream killer. Was when a nurse started to joke around with me she said "we had close encounters in one of the exam rooms" to get back at her ex.
alcockell :
I remember in a debate I had with some feminists on another board (think it was DigitalSpy), I couldn't help but think of clips in Cry Freedom... remember Denzel Washington as Steve Biko had to ID himself to that copper?
Chairborne :
>
Originally Posted by Witam Was
> the final nail or dream killer. Was when a nurse started to joke around with me she said "we had close encounters in one of the exam rooms" to get back at her ex.
So you hadn't done anything with her, but she made up the story entirely? Sheesh...
As an InCel, I started to go MGTOW back in the early 90's... But I started getting laid and I never followed through.
I remember anecdotes where I went my own way on individual issues, but I never realized what I was doing, nor did I identify as anything other than a regular dude (Beta in today's parlance).
I remember one day in university, a girl walked into my residence room - she was the prettiest girl from her small town (maybe an 8 in the city), and wanted to meet the guy across the hall. But she walked in uninvited, but it never occurred to her she wouldn't be welcome. She started asking stupid questions about my music equipment (even in the late 80's I was producing electronic music) and wanted me to make her a mix tape, and obviously didn't offer to pay or even consider the fact I would refuse... I dismissed her summarily for being rude. I knew I had no chance of fucking her (being maybe a 4 or 5 at the time), so I saw no advantage in kissing her ass. That set up a deep resentment that lasted throughout university.
She cut me off from females, by using her popularity to blacklist me. She cut me off from males - those beta guys who wanted to fuck her couldn't be my friend, or her and her circle of hags would ostracize them too. The only guys I could hang out with were the other losers who had no shot at her and her little clique, and my roommate who was a solid Alpha - and she chased his approval.
Flash forward; a buddy of mine (one of the other losers who had no shot at this chick and stuck by me in school) eventually became an accomplished, but amateur filmmaker. He calls me, years after university, to help him out with casting for a film. I've never done anything like that, and I'm curious why. I show up, and lo and behold - this chick is trying out for the part. I had the distinct pleasure of rejecting her, telling her we wanted somebody "less fat".
[edit: Well, I just checked her out. She succeeded anyways. Despite a common name, she's the first google hit that pops up, and she has an IMDB page with a resonably long list of acting credits. Ah well. At least I got the opportunity to reject her once.]
I learned a lot about female psychology in university. But I was convinced that NAWALT, so I banged my head against the brick wall of female interaction. Details here:
goingyourownway.com/showthrea...e-surface-here
I had other anecdotes;
a woman who told me "I love you because you do nice things for me" (if that's not the most conditional, threatening statement I don't know what is).
a woman who tried to get me to change my career because my job was too low-status, and I embarrassed her
There are others, but they're worth posts of their own.
Anyways, my turning point is (or will be) either a few weeks ago when I found out MGTOW actually is a thing, or within a few weeks, if I decide to pull the chute and bail on my current female.
I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie? What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
Grenade001 :
When I had to read up on PUA to try and understand women
phonebook :
Dating a Christian woman with the mistaken assumption that I would find a NAWALT in the Christian crowd. Boy was I wrong.
jso :
there was no sudden moment of realization. I questioned authority around the time I finished surviving my teenage years. I've never had any real life male role models or father figures of any kind. opposing female tyranny was just another piece of the puzzle, but it's a piece that came into focus when I started reading manosphere blogs.
mr.anonymous :
My story seems to be mentioned by other's experiences here.
I knew for a very long time something was very, very wrong.
While I approached life with an innocence and naiveté when I was young , I quickly sensed that it was a trait that would lead to severe consequences. Women didn't just dislike it, it invoked a primal rage within them I couldn't understand. The only thing similar I can equate it with it is how a rabid dog smells fear or weakness on a potential human victim. If it smells fear it goes straight into an enraged vicious state.
Well, if you approach a woman with altruistic ambitions, deep within her brain is this very same reaction.
I've experienced the ones from the churches. They were the most damaged and self centered. The most intolerant are the ones that consider themselves "Liberals or Progressives". Of course there were the ones that went through abuse. Then the spoiled ones that got their way because their fathers didn't have the slightest idea what to do with their insanity.... I've found some dewsies....
I guess it was actually watching my own female relatives, being the fly on the wall. Understanding that there was no trust whatsoever. If a man told them something in confidence, rest assured it could practically be on a billboard within minutes.
The Running Man :
>
Originally Posted by Grenade001
> When I had to read up on PUA to try and understand women
Same here. I was virtually 'gameless' throughout my twenties. Any success I had was more a result of my pretty face and reserved, shy behaviour which women mistook for arrogance and indifference (which is what they are ACTUALLY attracted to). When I started learning from (the good) PUAs and understanding female behaviour, I somehow liked them less and less. I still wanted to have sex and date them, but somehow my belief in romantic love and building a family disappeared along the way as I learned more and more about a woman's primitive nature and its ugly side. Modern young women were doing very little to hide it or control it so they made it very easy for me to disengage from the dating scene and walk away from the idea of marriage.
Grenade001 :
I'm still in my twenties and I can say that I am "gameless" to an extent. Most of what the PUA's talk about (not supplicating and generally keeping your dignity) I did naturally without a second thought. I think my "lack of game" would be a result of my highly logical thought processes and training to be an economist, one tries to create a formula that explains how and why a particular outcome occurs. When I tried to figure out an effective way to bed girls, it was an exhausting period in my life, luckily one that didn't involve too much pain. I genuinely believe that most people get laid by accident, I have seen couples where the two were completely mismatched looks wise, in a few cases the girl could have easily gotten much better (overseas of course), in most cases the guy should have had his man card revoked for being seen with a ham beast in public.
But the funny thing is that with certain types of girls in certain places, I don't need to "game" or do anything, just almost turn up and be myself. This happens overseas and with Chinese girls almost exclusively back home, lately since I've been growing my moustache I have been getting a lot more looks but nothing too substantial yet.
At home, I might as well be Mr. Invisible to the girls around here. Don't think I am too upset about this, basically equals to a zero stress life which allows me to enjoy life's pleasures as well as have the ability to put some solid hours of work into my job/uni/etc.
TL;DR. Going overseas and seeing feminine women, being brought up the hypergamy scale, is a turning point.
Ithit :
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
There has been no such event. I know enough women that are fine human beings who got together with good men and treat them well to feel that "everything" is a lie. It may be the case that AWALT, and in my experience an uncomfortable majority most certainly are (which is why I go my own way). But all women? That's not my experience thus far. However, I most certainly recognize that society as a whole encourages AWALT, and I'm extremely cautious because of it.
I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
livas :
>
Originally Posted by mr.anonymous
> I knew for a very long time something was very, very wrong.
Exactly
>
Originally Posted by mr.anonymous
> if you approach a woman with altruistic ambitions, deep within her brain is this very same reaction
Interesting point
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> I know enough women that are fine human beings who got together with good men and treat them well...It may be the case that AWALT...
You missed the point!
It is not important whether awalt or not...
What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
I call it "The license to bitch & nag" which in the long run is far more deadlier than the one to kill
phonebook :
Man, the church women! The born-again ones are not very subtle, and neither are the "liberals/progressives". Those ones are relatively easy to avoid. But the ones who have practiced for a long time have put on the NAWALT mask on from day one. Either that, or it may be because their traditional upbringing may have kept their hypergamous instincts in check somewhat. But in either case, it's just a matter of extent of how AWALT they are. In the eyes of society, I'm seen as a potential beta provider, seeing as, I've had a trad religious upbringing as well, and did more or less what was expected of me. I'd imagine that the traditional women do look out for potential providers a little earlier than most other types of women. It is then easy for them to say "hey look I've been loyal to this guy from day one" in order to insinuate that she is supposedly a woman of moral quality. And they are always nice and sweet at first. I think on the old board, somebody once termed them "scouts".
In the events leading to our break-up, it was crazy how much it looked like my God-fearing ex hated me. She'd just look at me as though she thought I was the most pathetic person that ought to be wiped off the face of the planet. I detected something was very wrong, but I just kept doing the wrong thing and bought things for her, because I still had that idea in my head that she wasn't like that at all, that there really should not be any way she would hate me for all the things I've done for her. That there was no way she would give in to her more primitive and vicious side. She'd never say "I hate you", she'd just take her present without so much of a thank-you and run out the door, literally, giving some half-assed excuse about some urgent "church activity". Meanwhile I was sat there in the restaurant watching her run out, like a chump. Years later, she's pregnant with some thug. Pretty big turning point, huh?
I'm not really interested in women anymore. I don't see a point. As stardusk once termed it, I have "intellectually induced asexuality". This is how I look back at my innocence and naivete:
BeijaFlor :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> It is not important whether awalt or not...
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society puts them on a "privileged pedestal."
Exactly so.
Let me put it a little more dramatically:
How many empty cylinders in the revolver would be enough to get you to agree to play Russian roulette?
(As far as I'm concerned, you could empty them ALL and I'm still going to say no.)
Every woman in the Western world, no matter how "civilized," no matter how sincere, no matter who she is or how she acts, has the guns of Government at her beck and call. Any of 'em CAN re-cast Saturday night's drunken spree, by way of Sunday's hung-over remorse, into Monday's rape charge. Any of 'em CAN "Oops" you into being her baby-daddy, and you are on the hook unless you can prove you weren't the daddy - and a DNA test requires her cooperation, at least to the extent of allowing YOUR doctor (matter of trust here) to take the cheek-swab sample. Any of 'em CAN get Hubby kicked out of house and home, by calling the "City's Finest" and saying, "I'm afraid of him." Any of 'em CAN hack off your willy in a fit of drunken rage, and the world will laugh at you on The Talk.
Not saying they will. Just saying they have the power, and the means, and the tacit approval of Society, if they do.
Matt Foley :
For me, it was after my ex-wife and I separated and I did a little online dating. Of the 5 women I went out with, every one of them claimed that their exes were abusive and/or drug addicts. By the end of the dates, it was clear that there was no mutual interest. I discovered MGTOW not too long after that.
I've considered learning some game and using it to get my needs met, but honestly, escorts seem to be way less of a hassle.
livas :
Ithit :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> You missed the point!
Then the point wasn't clear. I answered the question that was asked as I see it. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the point was?
>
Originally Posted by livas
> It is not important whether awalt or not...
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Octavian :
>
Originally Posted by Matt Foley
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie?
> What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
I met a latin girl, sharp as a tack. Had the whole package, and I figured with my experience in PUA in one of America's largest cities, I could handle her indefinitely with my superior intellect and skill.
Six months later, I was in a fight for my life. Understand that I've had to draw my gun in self defense before, and that horrible experience is nothing compared to the day to day psychological warfare a man must fight when he's with a woman. Every day had me questioning my sanity. Every hour with her was a power struggle. I felt like I was fighting an enemy I couldn't see, couldnt hit, and couldn't dodge. The scene with Morpheus where Agent Smith kicks his ass is a video summation of my last relationshackle. No matter how much I cared, how much I tried to see past the lies and the emotional bullshit, there she was-with an emotional fist waiting for my face. There was no rest, no recovery. Just constant war, and addictive sex.
After extricating myself from that disaster, I realized two things. One, my intel was WRONG. I was missing a very important piece of the puzzle, somewhere, and sought to find it. I then scoured academic and print literature for info on women, and discovered the second thing; after reading Esther Villar, "Sperm Wars", and other publications on the subject, I realized most women aren't even sentient . They're biological versions of a shell company laundering drug money. Lots of lights, shiny marble ,and polished glass-but its all bullshit hiding more bullshit. There's so much bullshit in a woman's life you'd need a team of Feds and a million dollar labor budget just to document one woman's lies, to herself and others.
That's when I realized where the exit signs were, and made an immediate use of them.
Ancient Sunlight :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Allow me to attempt to phrase it differently once more. You have your lovely NAWALT; a woman who appears to be a good human being, who fits you, who you enjoy being with. Now where are you going to go? Marriage is the almost inevitable answer. Meanwhile, every possible falsehood, delusion and confusion is fed to your NAWALT by the films she watches, the books she reads, the shows she watches, the news stories she reads, her friends and family, naive young men.. By nearly everyone, in fact. Perhaps she changes, as nearly all women do when they get married. Perhaps it'll end one day. And you are married - meaning you lose everything.
When you marry a woman you are almost literally betting your life; and the odds are not with you. It is holding a grenade and hoping it doesn't explode when you pull the pin; it is playing Russian roulette; it is a lottery with few prices.
BeijaFlor :
>
Originally Posted by livas
> What is important however is the fact that all women could decide to act that way, because the state and society are putting them on a "privileged pedestal"
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
I won't take offense at it, but I will point this out:
If you look at the actual crime statistics, you find that rape is rare (under 85,000 reported in the USA in 2012, according to FBI).
If you look at the actual divorce records, you find that divorce is depressingly common (about 2 million a year in the USA).
I don't say "AWALT" to shame women as a class. I say it to warn men, as individuals.
NOTE TO ALL: There's a reading list in the "MGTOW 101" sub-forum in The Lounge. Those of us who choose to expound the NAWALT dogma ... well, you might want to read some of those books.
juicemoney :
Here is my long-winded response to the OP's question:
After my last relationship I took stock of what everybody else suggested/commented/inserted their own bullshit opinion. The popular culture that pervades our society is full of subtle messages and opinions that can alter your decision making and values. None of this helped my personal situation or made me feel any better. I travelled quite a bit and started to read more. Finally, I stepped back and saw the same slow motion catastrophe I experienced occurring with a lot of other people. I had always been a skeptic but I finally accepted a simple truth: The vast majority of what you are told is not for your own benefit.
After a few late nights scouring the internet I "woke up" from this sociocultural haze of nonsense. It is especially difficult to take a macro view of the surroundings when I mingle with people my own age. The average mid 20s person today is a fucking idiot with little perspective outside of their own narcissistic existence. This can be applied to most people and that's when I realized that the majority of people don't have an informed opinion about anything but are more than happy to force their ignorant views down your throat.
I find this information is a lot more simple to understand and easier to digest when you apply simple economics as a context or framework. Dating, careers, education, finance and misandry make a lot more sense to me in terms of supply and demand. It is a cold way to view things but I have always been a logical and somewhat impersonal type with a dash of cynicism. The end of my last relationship awakened me not just from institutionalized misandry but from a lot of other BS I accepted from people and society. This point of view doesn't just apply to women; society has a vast array of institutions and resources in place to keep individuals as beta sheep and prevent them from reaching their own potential. It made me take stock of where I am versus where I want to be. As a whole our governments and money are corrupt, our values and morals have eroded and mediocrity has become mainstream. The Western Empire is on the decline, flawed views in the average woman is only one small indicator. Since the dawn of civilization man has sought to fulfill his greed and centralize power, why should things be so different now?
While I may sound condescending, I try to reserve judgement and not be a full on elitist. There is a lot of good to be found in some people once you can dig past all the bullshit. The problem is that society has made the bullshit matter. While difficult, I think that there can be a balance between full-bore elitism and being part of the sheeple.
History has shown that a contrarian point of view is often a key component of success; it seems that is the case especially when women or money are involved. Now I am finding it easier to figure out my own mission and vision in life; the last difficult leap is going from theory to practice.
GabrielKnight :
>
Originally Posted by Ithit
> I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
I think that maybe you still don´t fully understand the effect our society has on most women. First of all, there is a sense of entitlement that the majority of women share. And while not all women share that sense of entitlement to the same extend, they all have that feeling that they "deserve" certain things, just because they are women. These can be very small things like for example a woman asking you to fix her laptop or carry something from the basement into her apartement and the border is very often blurred. But almost every woman, even the most mild-mannered and understanding and "man-loving" female will have that special something that she feels entitled to, just because she is a woman and you are the man. This can be a very different thing depending on the woman. Sharpen your senses and observe women very closely and you will find those little things in almost every woman.
Now, you could say "But maybe not EVERY woman has this sense of entitlement, no matter how minor it might be! Oh and you are just paranoid!" And maybe you are right about that. But think about this: Our ancestors lived in the wilderness where every movement of the grass and the leaves could mean that there is a predator stalking you. Now you have two options: Run away or ignore the movement because you can´t know for sure that there really is a predator. In the first case, if you run away and there is a predator, you have just saved your life. If there is no predator, you have just wasted some precious calories but you can balance that out later. At least you are alive to eat food. If you stay and there is no predator, that would be ideal because you didn´t waste energy. But if you stay and there is a predator, you are dead. When you think about the odds and the risk involved in this situation, your safest option is to ALWAYS run away, if there is movement in the grass. You might save your life or if there is no real threat, you just wasted some calories. No big deal compared to the risk involved.
When we are talking about the dangers that women in this society can pose to men, we are talking about real threats: Divorce, loss of lots of money, financial bankrupcy, mental breakdown (maybe even suicide), false rape accusations, slandering etc.. Or maybe it´s just messing with your head which might lead to depression or a lower quality of life.
If you take all those risks into account you have to ask yourself: What can I lose and is it worth it? The question is not so much if there really IS a tiger hiding in the bushes. The question is: What happens if there is a tiger.
Or to put it in the words of the famous philosopher Clint Eastwood:
jso :
I will also add this:
I more recently came to the realization that all substantial interactions with females I have ever had in my life were negative. most especially my mom, who I can now say with certainty was just a horribly shitty parent. so no one can tell me that I just need to keep my eye out for the fabled mythical NAWALT to save my life. I know better now. my education was the most costly kind, full decades of painful psychological and physical torture (starvation, specifically).
fantasma :
Hold on a second here... You mean to tell me that everything I was told about women was a lie?
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait... No...
Next thing you'll tell me that Santa isn't real, the Easter Bunny, or... The tooth fairy...
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait... No...
Oh damn... Maybe the whole system has been lying to me my whole life...
No.. Couldn't be.. Can't be... How could you... Wait...
Meh... whatever.. I'll just do what I want to do. Fuck it.
TheRecipe :
Seeing the same characteristics displayed over and over again (selfishness, mind games, psychological bullying, pathological liars etc), not only to me by other guys too. Now I realised that women are downright dangerous and should be handled with extreme caution:
They're not too smart though so once you figure it all out you can hack your way around their little game, smash the poon and ditch.
Joe :
You would probably guess that after 2 marriages and 2 divorces I would have clued in. Nope.
I think I was lucky. I decided to live on my own for a while to figure things out.
This gave me a lot of free time so I decided to keep an open mind and read whatever sparked an interest. This was new for me because I belonged to a religious group that highly censors information. They actually scare people into believing demons will possess you if you read "unholy" material.
I read some books on psychology and philosophy. I stumbled onto some PUA websites and read some of their stuff. That led me into reading about MRAs, feminism and most recently MGTOW.
So, after all of this, I started observing female behaviour. I gradually became aware of the games women and society play with men's lives. That's when I decided I want no part of it.
WheelBarrow :
I'm not sure there was a specific turning point for me. I've always been a bit outside of the social arena and stepping in to find a mate seemed, well, foreign, and not just a little bit frightening. Still I soldiered on but was always rather reserved and understood early on that unwed mothers were a no mans land of disaster waiting to happen. Of course, being reserved gets one practically nowhere with women which I regarded as a curse but now view as a blessing in many respects.
The last straw was observing first hand how a woman could take my heart and stomp it on the ground by telling me things that drew me in to finding I was falling in love with her and then doing a complete 180 and becoming as cold as ice (thanks, Foreigner). I tried to rebound via online dating and we know what sort of a cesspool that is. Last year I found the old MTGOW Forums on an unrelated search and was simultaneously appalled, impressed, and enlightened by the subject matter. So many pieces fell into place and so much of my life experience became clear. It also became clear that my life experience was far from unique and I shared a common bond with many men.
In many ways I have been GMOW all along and in others I have only checked out of the system within the past year. My goal now is to help spread the word and shine the light of truth to those still lost at sea.
mountainman :
There have been a few times in my life when I've had revelations, when I'd been trying to understand something intractable and then It Just Fell Into Place. One of those was about women. Revelation: "It's not me, it's them." Despite the contrary evidence (e.g. The only common factor in all my relationships was me.) the truth is that "It's not me, it's them."
GabrielKnight :
> " Originally Posted by mountainman
> Revelation: "It's not me, it's them."
I guess, most MGTOW men had this revelation at a certain point. I certainly had it after I stumbled across a forum where men talked about their abusive relationships. I then discovered a blog of a guy in Toronto who talked about his horrible dating experiences and the comments on that site confirmed his experiences. Then I discovered some MGTOW channels on Youtube and the rest is history
Thomas Covenant :
I have had a few experiences that, when I look back, come together to complete the picture;
-Neglectful mother, abusive grandmother, leeching step-mother, whore sister. (Can anyone see the pattern emerging?)
However, the turning point (at which I could slap on the MGTOW colours, if you like) was last year when I was trying to figure out why women were getting more interested in me. I hadn't changed in any way so it was making me feel pretty suspicious.
I stumbled my way onto a "don't date single moms" article by way of Dick Masterson's website (at the same time that a single mum was flirting with me at work - I say flirt, it was more like a bloody job interview) and I would probably have been convinced by one or two well-argued points.
What I got was dozens.
corvair61 :
>
> I think it's important not to become so jaded by the red pill that one becomes a true misogynist. Healthy distrust is fine, but it shouldn't draw one into full scale hatred.
I read every post before yours and did not see one man say they hated women.
They said AWALT, which may be what they have lived.
If some man comes on here that has been burned and becomes a misogynist as you fear, who cares?
This is a place for men to talk, rant and yes maybe hate a little if they need to get it out of their systems. They've been fucking burned.
The red pill is a jagged fucking pill and it goes down differently in each man.
I like reading the angry posts. It reminds me daily of what I went through. My anger has waned (a bit), but I need the constant reminders.
livas :
>
> My anger has waned (a bit), but I need the constant reminders.
"There's a new sheriff in town. He is tired of seeing his boys getting their
hearts shot up."
Try to turn this energy of anger into productive things like becoming "the sheriff" with time
smallbitsoffire :
My whole life has been the turning point. Ship turns slowly and if we take into account the heavy waves of society, ship may not be able turn in the strongest winds of strom at all and sometimes it may feel that ship is going to sink.
I have always been a negative force. The one who has objected any unjustice and had strong opinions. Of course lot of times it has turned against me and I have got lot of bullying when I was young and being strong character was still a bad thing back then. Now.. it's something opposite. I see more and more respect when I open my mouth. Lot of times I say things other people would like say, but just doesn't have the courage.
But let's say that ship begin to turn due events of my childhood, when girls were pampered my teachers and authorities, how I got discaplined by one mother when like 5 to 6 girls where making fun of me in little play ground and I went to try to get one of them down from the frame they were sitting on and singing because I felt helpless. This mother who was not mother of any of these girls said me "you never ever hit a girl" and made no effort what so ever to say anything to girls. I had two choises, either try stay there humiliated and play while listening the taunt song or go home.
Multiple cases during my life showed that women are favored in many occation. And that boys are always the culprits. Girls learned very quicly after puberty kicked in that they can use their new weapon to make guys do things for them. And I have never liked it. I've been rebellious from the start. But during long and lonely life you will hit the low points eventually. I don't believe that my most recent experiences were the deciding factor, but the ship got finally wind to its sails.
livas :
>
> I have always been a negative force. The one who has objected any unjustice and had strong opinions.
I congratulate you! But why would it be negative to object to unjustice and to have a strong opinion.
corvair61 :
>
> "There's a new sheriff in town. He is tired of seeing his boys getting their hearts shot up."
> Try to turn this energy of anger into productive things like becoming "the sheriff" with time!
I am really not sure what you are trying to say.
Is it that we no longer allow the men to come here and rant about what they have been through?
He is tired of seeing his boys getting their hearts shot up.
They arrive here shot up. Then we allow them to shout and curse until they no longer need to.
By the way, who is this new sheriff?
livas :
>
> I am really not sure what you are trying to say
What I am saying is that if all men, who have been shot down or treated unjust by women, with time, could funnel their anger and use it to become protectors of their brothers by helping and educating them about women and reality, we all (as men) would benefit from that.
corvair61 :
>
> What I am saying is that if all men, who have been shot down or treated unjust by women, with time, could funnel their anger and use it to become protectors of their brothers by helping and educating them about women and reality, we all (as men) would benefit from that.
There is only so much any pussy rabid man will listen to.
What we are doing here is not going to change the world.
We might save a few from the perils of marriage.
I think our bigger job is to let the men come here and let it out without getting shamed by women or men.
Rouleur :
>
> I love these open ended questions. So here's one.
> When did you realize that everything you were told about women was a lie? What was the event that caused you to realize that women didn't ever want good, respectable, decent men?
That isn't true. I know plenty of women who either want or have already ensnared a decent, respectable man. I could have gotten married ten years ago, the summer after high school, because a pretty girl in my class wanted to start a family with a decent, respectable man. She married another man a few years later and has the family she wanted.
Maybe you've been rejected in the past; that's not important. You're not basing your worth as a man on how much you're wanted by breeders, are you? Of course not. It's actually a good thing, because you were spared from middle class hell, or child support, or herpes, etc....
You may find a woman who acts NAWALT, but society is like an ominous black hole, always pulling her in a direction toward its Event Horizon - The Event in which she has a turning point of her own, and figures out the cost/benefit of making use of the power society gives over her husband, or her ability to act as she pleases at least without consequence, and often with profit.
AWALT. Maybe not always in the fashion its described in an individual thread on the manosphere, but all of them are machines with a prime directive of replication. That's breeding - not loving you, or being your friend, companion, soul mate, or whatever other words the deceivers use to entice a man into slavery.
Stark :
>
> AWALT. Maybe not always in the fashion its described in an individual thread on the manosphere, but all of them are machines with a prime directive of replication. That's breeding - not loving you, or being your friend, companion, soul mate, or whatever other words the deceivers use to entice a man into slavery.
While it's interesting from a younger prospective of a women's desire to replicate/breed/whatever. As women get older the true nature is evident and that is they are concerned about their own well being - not the man's (unless it effects their well being). Women are true sycophants.
For me... after a shitty marriage and equally crappy relation$shits afterwards it becomes apparent that women are entitled in today's society and man are mere fodder for the well-being of women. This was a clear turning point for me. Women's expectation of what they want is unrealistic and actually quite amusing to me now. As the SMV decreases the veil begins to drop and one can see the illusion and the bad deal men are dealt in today's society!
TheDisgruntledGentleman :
Divorce court...
Greymaster :
Simple observations in my life. Typical stuff, like seeing family and friends getting utterly screwed over. Seeing women in groups also lead me to this, since they seem so bitchy, for lack of a better term. No first hand experience mind you, but when you see a snake, best to assume it's venemous.
HamstaBlasta :
>
No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Probably more like the 'thought' process behind 'Rape Culture'* no? It's worth your checking out 'The [female] Gun in the Room' concept, which is what lots of the posters here are pretty much alluding to: it's an institutional, systemic thing. I'm defo including that one in the MGTOW glossary I'm working on.
My answer to the actual question asked in this thread, is when I found myself being shot with that 'gun', from 'WTF?!!' nowhere, just because the woman carrying it fancied a bit of Eastenders-style melodrama, near as I can tell. That's why I've ghosted since, and most likely will always continue to do so. It was also that event that made me realise that most blokes are WKs and manginas, regardless of how much you thought you were mates and friends beforehand. I choose to only interact with 'redpill' Men now.
One thing always worth bearing in mind when '[false] Equivalence' arguments, like yours hinted at**, are invoked is that objectivity really does trump subjectivity, and it may be that one side is actually, objectively, provably correct; the other equally incorrect - however similar the forms of the arguments.
It is trivial to prove that 'The [female] Gun in the Room' is often the case, by seeing women constantly get what they want, cash, prizes, sole custody of the kids, and revenge by using 'the Gun in the Room' that the State and Culture gives to them at birth. It is equally trivial to prove that '[male on female] Rape Culture' simply doesn't exist, by pointing to the social stigma and legal punishment visited upon accused [male on female] sexual harassers -> rapists; where even someone as uber-Elite as Strauss-Kahn could be taken down by the lowliest maid's mere accusation of sexual impropriety.
I always consider this a pretty golden real-world example that: disproves the existence of 'Rape Culture' and the Paaaaytriarchy; proves the existence of 'The [female] Gun in the Room', and therefore female Privilege; and shows that being all 'I'm Alpha bro!' won't save you.
*Yup, I know that 'Rape Culture' is mostly a more 'acceptable' sounding repackaging of 'all men are rapists', but there are differences between those two concepts.
**I've been busily attempting to do other higher-priority bits and bobs, regarding our good work, so haven't had much time to read nor post; but I've appreciated some of your anti-echo-chamber posts I've read. Always good to be kept honest and on our toes. Cheers.
mr.jr :
Married 2.5 times (I'll get to that 0.5 later), got screwed terribly by the first one, made out fabulous on the second one (that will be book worthy material) and the 2.5 one? Well, that's when my eyes were opened.
Lived with her for 10 years, separate houses but she spent summers, weekends and few weeknights at my place. We split up when one of her bratty kids caused all sorts of shit problems in my life and I wasn't allowed to discipline the little princess. We kept on seeing each other over the years while I started dating and meeting women, but I always got pulled back into her. All this changed my game, I found I was full-on Beta with her. After 5 years we decided to marry and between finally being with her, and my advancing age (and lower and lower testosterone) became a beta bitch slave. This once wild filly who I managed effortlessly years earlier became my overlord and I had lost my backbone (let alone my boner). Three months into the marriage, I caught her fucking her old boyfriend and threw her out. Now, filled with self pity and confused at the illogic of it all, I began to look at why this girl who I had know for 15 years could treat a really nice guy like me so badly.
I started dating again and put up the deflector shields against close engagement by not bedding every chick in sight. And something strange (to me at the time) happened. I found that the more I put off sexual engagement, the more they wanted to bed me. It became a game of sorts, seeing just how desperate the woman would be over a period of dates when I wouldn't screw her. Me, being the sort who needs to find logic and reason in every situation did what any techie would do, I googled it. Wow! PUA, SMV, Hamstering, Red Pill, MGTOW - I was never so driven to learn a new language. Sorting thru this body of fact, thoughts, views and examples on women and relationships took some time, but just like Rome, all roads led to one infallible conclusion so succinctly summed up by Bill Burr. “Women are constantly patting themselves on the back for how difficult their lives are and no one corrects them because they want to fuck ‘em.” MGTOWs don’t have this problem and often can be effective on calling women on their BS rather than justify female behavior for any number of reasons. (from jagrmeister's post, "5 Misconceptions about MGTOW").
I replayed all my past exploits, marriages, dates, and relationships. I examined my buddies and their marriages, I spent hours watching couples at high end resorts (I live part time at one) and in each and every case, I saw the same basic plot line develop. The entitled bitch calling the shots because the guy wants to dip his wick for a few minutes inside her body.
I have a decided advantage over the younger members here since I have been getting increasing doses of the wonder drug, "low T". That drug gives you incredible insight into reality by moving your brain from your dick back to your head. MGTOW and the framework behind it gave me my life back and the only downside is the soreness I have in my face from my constant grin.
Oh... I see I didn't address the 2.5 part. I made sure the paperwork regarding the legal filing of the marriage never got filed but didn't let her know (got married in foreign country). When I booted her out, I told her I would not pay one cent towards the 'divorce'. She paid her lawyer for it all and I paid 42 cents for a stamp to mail back the signed separation agreement page.
ak47 :
>
> Then the point wasn't clear. I answered the question that was asked as I see it. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the point was?
> No offense, but that reminds me somewhat of the thought process behind the "all men are rapists" mantra.
Its not equivalent.
The point you are missing is the lack of consequences. Sure all men could rape, since they are physically stronger than women. They don't (in civilized countries) because it comes with a 10-20 year prison term, loss of livelihood, and social ostracism.
There are no consequences for being an AWALT. These days if you fleece your husband and make sure he's left peniless in his 50s you are CELEBRATED. "Fuck that loser" good for you, you go guuurl.
All women, even your special little princess that you think you will find, are cognizant of the fact that they could fleece you in divorce court, or cry wolf and have you arrested, beat up, and perhaps killed. Without any consequences what so ever. If you get divorced, most of your "friends" are going to be on your wife's side. You will be old, alone, and starting life over in your 50s.
Its ironic that society rewards women who cry wolf and yet tell young boys that the moral of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is to not lie, because it comes with punishments and consequences....Whores (literally...a professional whore) can falsely accuse men of rape, and the man's life is ruined. Never mind the fact that the accusation comes from a fucking prostitute. The fact that fucking prostitutes have more credibility than an average man should tell you all you need to know about this society. (Reference to the Duke Lacrosse incident)
AWALT is in no way equivalent to "All men are rapists, teach men not to rape". AWALT merely recognizes that women, all of em, have a stronger hand to play in the court of law. All women have problems dealing with emotions. All women will act like bitchy cunts to their husbands. Everybody lives and works with women (to various extents), its not like members of this forum are telling you to seal yourself in a fucking bubble. But you've been warned of women and relationshits.
The point of AWALT is vigilance. Debating AWALT or NAWALT is a waste of time. NAWALT? Cool, you won the lottery, congratulations. Assume AWALT as the default position, its not like you lose anything by it. Its like putting your guard up when you think you're about to get into a fight. You don't want to fight, but its foolish to stand there with your arms down.
Witam Was :
I knew for a very long time something was weird going on as a child and my interactions with my mother.
That feeling grew as I was put in under woman’s care in the hospital and it made me think it was good to have these women pay attention to me with medical instruments. I still had hope but when I came back to the world of the so called living but I was rejected. The felling of something wrong with world grew like a sliver in the back of my mind and I was so busy working on myself to make it through the day that I did not even care about women or anything else. That sliver in the back of my mind grew tenfold and never really thought about female interactions.
I never played the game or put that much energy into any of the females that paid attention to me but the final nail or dream killer. Was when a nurse started to joke around with me she said "we had close encounters in one of the exam rooms" to get back at her ex.
alcockell :
I remember in a debate I had with some feminists on another board (think it was DigitalSpy), I couldn't help but think of clips in Cry Freedom... remember Denzel Washington as Steve Biko had to ID himself to that copper?
Chairborne :
>
> the final nail or dream killer. Was when a nurse started to joke around with me she said "we had close encounters in one of the exam rooms" to get back at her ex.
So you hadn't done anything with her, but she made up the story entirely? Sheesh...
As an InCel, I started to go MGTOW back in the early 90's... But I started getting laid and I never followed through.
I remember anecdotes where I went my own way on individual issues, but I never realized what I was doing, nor did I identify as anything other than a regular dude (Beta in today's parlance).
I remember one day in university, a girl walked into my residence room - she was the prettiest girl from her small town (maybe an 8 in the city), and wanted to meet the guy across the hall. But she walked in uninvited, but it never occurred to her she wouldn't be welcome. She started asking stupid questions about my music equipment (even in the late 80's I was producing electronic music) and wanted me to make her a mix tape, and obviously didn't offer to pay or even consider the fact I would refuse... I dismissed her summarily for being rude. I knew I had no chance of fucking her (being maybe a 4 or 5 at the time), so I saw no advantage in kissing her ass. That set up a deep resentment that lasted throughout university.
She cut me off from females, by using her popularity to blacklist me. She cut me off from males - those beta guys who wanted to fuck her couldn't be my friend, or her and her circle of hags would ostracize them too. The only guys I could hang out with were the other losers who had no shot at her and her little clique, and my roommate who was a solid Alpha - and she chased his approval.
Flash forward; a buddy of mine (one of the other losers who had no shot at this chick and stuck by me in school) eventually became an accomplished, but amateur filmmaker. He calls me, years after university, to help him out with casting for a film. I've never done anything like that, and I'm curious why. I show up, and lo and behold - this chick is trying out for the part. I had the distinct pleasure of rejecting her, telling her we wanted somebody "less fat".
[edit: Well, I just checked her out. She succeeded anyways. Despite a common name, she's the first google hit that pops up, and she has an IMDB page with a resonably long list of acting credits. Ah well. At least I got the opportunity to reject her once.]
I learned a lot about female psychology in university. But I was convinced that NAWALT, so I banged my head against the brick wall of female interaction. Details here:
goingyourownway.com/showthrea...e-surface-here
I had other anecdotes;
a woman who told me "I love you because you do nice things for me" (if that's not the most conditional, threatening statement I don't know what is).
a woman who tried to get me to change my career because my job was too low-status, and I embarrassed her
There are others, but they're worth posts of their own.
Anyways, my turning point is (or will be) either a few weeks ago when I found out MGTOW actually is a thing, or within a few weeks, if I decide to pull the chute and bail on my current female.
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